SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME very appreciated

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

chengny

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Posts
4,084
Reaction score
1,024
Location
NH
First Name
Jerry
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
K3500
Engine Size
350/5.7
POOR ACCELERATION, LACK OF POWER

Description
Engine performance is weak, acceleration is poor, and there are no other major symptoms.

Causes

Retarded Ignition Timing
If the ignition occurs after Top Dead Center (TDC) while the piston is moving downward, optimum combustion will not be achieved. Cylinder pressure at the time of combustion will be lower, resulting in more combustion energy being transformed into heat, rather than mechanical energy. Heat output of the cylinder increases while power output decreases.

Testing


- Check Ignition Timing and advance

Retarded Valve Timing
If the valve timing is retarded, the intake valve opens and closes late. Less air/fuel charge is admitted to the cylinder and some may be expelled back through the late closing intake valve during the compression stroke.

The exhaust valve also opens and closes late, with similar affects. Less exhaust is pushed out and some exhaust may be drawn back in during the intake stroke.

Testing


- Check engine vacuum. Vacuum will be lower than normal if the valve timing is retarded.
- Perform Compression Check. Compression will be lower than normal on ALL cylinders if the valve timing is incorrect.
- Check Timing Chain alignment. A timing chain which is off just one link will result in a large reduction in power. See: Engine, Cooling and Exhaust\Engine\Timing Components

High Backpressure
A restriction in the exhaust system causes pressure to build up at the exhaust manifold. As a result of the the increased pressure, exhaust gasses are not fully discharged from the cylinder on each stroke. Engine power decrease dramatically as pressure begins to build up in the exhaust manifold.

1
You must be registered for see images attach



Testing


- Check engine vacuum. High exhaust backpressure will cause a reduction in engine vacuum.
- While at idle, snap the throttle and observe engine vacuum.

•Normal - Vacuum drops to zero and quickly returns to original level.
•High Backpressure - Vacuum drops to zero, but slowly returns to original level.
- Examine Exhaust system for signs of damage (crushed or bent piping).
- Remove catalytic converter and inspect. Back pressure problems are often the result of a plugged/blocked catalytic converter.

Low Compression
low compression reduces peak cylinder pressure. Lower cylinder pressures reduce the amount of combustion energy which is converted from heat to mechanical energy, reducing engine power.


2
You must be registered for see images attach


Testing


- Check engine vacuum.
- Perform Compression Check.
- If one or more cylinders indicate low compression, perform a cylinder leakdown check to determine the cause.

NOTE: A cylinder leakdown check utilizes regulated, compressed air to pressurize each cylinder (at Top Dead Center Compression). While performing this check, the cause of the compression leak may be determined by listening for escaping air:


•Air heard leaking from the exhaust indicates an exhaust valve problem
•Air heard leaking from the intake or throttle body indicates an intake valve problem.
•Air heard leaking from the PCV valve or PCV breather hose indicates a piston, ring, or cylinder wall problem.
•Air heard leaking from an adjacent cylinder indicates a head gasket failure between the two cylinders (both adjacent cylinders will have identically low compression).
•Air seen bubbling out of the radiator indicates a head gasket failure (or a cracked head/block).
Dead/Weak Cylinders
A single dead or weak cylinder has a significant affect on engine power. Not only does the engine loose the power output of the dead cylinder, but the remaining cylinders must continue to provide power to rotate the dead cylinder through the compression stroke.

Testing


- Perform Compression Check.
- Using an ignition analizer, perform a cylinder balance check.

NOTE: A cylinder balance individually grounds out the ignition spark for each cylinder and measures the amount of engine rpm which is lost. When a dead cylinder is grounded out there will be no rpm loss.



- Inspect all spark plugs for signs of misfire. Complete ignition misfire will result in a wet fuel fouled spark plug. Occasional or intermittent misfire may show no signs of problems on the spark plugs. Check porcelain insulators for evidence of cracking.
- Inspect ignition cables for signs for insulation damage or arcing.
- Inspect ignition cables for high resistance readings or corroded terminals.

Lean Air/Fuel Mixture
A lean air/fuel mixture provides too much air and not enough fuel. Incomplete combustion occurs and engine power is reduced.

Testing


- Inspect vacuum hoses and gasket for leaks.
- Check Fuel Pressure.
- Check fuel control system for proper operation. See Computers and Control systems. See: Computers and Control Systems

Poor Fuel Quality
Old fuel which has chemically broken down or is diluted with other non-combustable liquids will reduce engine power.

Testing


- Visually inspect a sample of the fuel. If the fuel appears cloudy, rusty, or dirty, it should be replaced.

Automatic Transmission Problems
A failure of the automatic transmision to smoothly transfer engine power to the wheels may feel very similar to a loss of engine power.

Testing


- Verify the transmission fluid is full.
- Verify the transmission is in low gear when starting off. If the transmission is starting off in second gear, acceleration will be weak.
- Verify the transmission is shifting at the appropriate speeds. If the transmission is shifting up too early, acceleration will be weak.
 

HotRodPC

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Posts
47,132
Reaction score
9,329
Location
OKC, OK
First Name
HotRod
Truck Year
85 K20 LWB
Truck Model
Silverado
Engine Size
454 - Turbo 400 - 3.73
Timing has to be 6 +/-2 to pass smog.
I wonder if his balancer slipped?

That's exactly what I was getting at when I asked about the timing at 17 degrees and it rips he says. But the pinging kinda told me, then yes, it's actually that far advaced, but it still worth checking into.

Look at my truck, I drove it over 3 years with a slipped balancer. Of course I timed it by ear and it did fine, but had it wouldn't run at all had I set it by the mark and light.
 

HotRodPC

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Posts
47,132
Reaction score
9,329
Location
OKC, OK
First Name
HotRod
Truck Year
85 K20 LWB
Truck Model
Silverado
Engine Size
454 - Turbo 400 - 3.73
I don't know why, I still just keep thinking timing chain has jumped a tooth or maybe even 2. He says it's tight though. :shrug:

I did start to lean with Jim on the clogged exhaust, but gave up on that when he says he runs good with advanced timing but pings. Clogged exhaust, it won't do burnouts no way, no how. The balancer could have slipped, but if it's showing 17 degrees advanced INITIAL timing and doing burnouts but pinging, that makes sense that the timing is indeed advanced. Do keep in mind there is a difference and INITIAL timing which is at idle, vac advance plugged off, than there is timing at higher rpm with centrifical advance and vac advance combined.

Just saying, I still seem to be stuck on retarded valve timing and compensating advanced ignition timing compensating to get it to run just sounds like timing chain slip to me all day long. That would be the old school non computer, non ESC, non mix solenoid carb diagnosis IMO. So now, what's the ECM and ESC doing and could it be the problem?

I'm just wondering if we're getting the whole story. As in, did this vehicle sit for a long time, did you just buy it, was there a recent carb swap and it hasn't run right since, or was it running just fine for the last several weeks and this happened all of a sudden?

Another thing just came to mind too, what are the chances you got some bad gas? This will also cause the issue you have including getting it to run with advanced timing and pinging?
 

Jims86

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Posts
5,492
Reaction score
135
Location
Patterson,Ca
First Name
Jim
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
K10 Suburban Silverado
Engine Size
5.7 TBI
I don't know why, I still just keep thinking timing chain has jumped a tooth or maybe even 2. He says it's tight though. :shrug:

I did start to lean with Jim on the clogged exhaust, but gave up on that when he says he runs good with advanced timing but pings. Clogged exhaust, it won't do burnouts no way, no how. The balancer could have slipped, but if it's showing 17 degrees advanced INITIAL timing and doing burnouts but pinging, that makes sense that the timing is indeed advanced. Do keep in mind there is a difference and INITIAL timing which is at idle, vac advance plugged off, than there is timing at higher rpm with centrifical advance and vac advance combined.

Just saying, I still seem to be stuck on retarded valve timing and compensating advanced ignition timing compensating to get it to run just sounds like timing chain slip to me all day long. That would be the old school non computer, non ESC, non mix solenoid carb diagnosis IMO. So now, what's the ECM and ESC doing and could it be the problem?

I'm just wondering if we're getting the whole story. As in, did this vehicle sit for a long time, did you just buy it, was there a recent carb swap and it hasn't run right since, or was it running just fine for the last several weeks and this happened all of a sudden?

Another thing just came to mind too, what are the chances you got some bad gas? This will also cause the issue you have including getting it to run with advanced timing and pinging?
Yeah, I gave up on the plugged exhaust after he said it rips....
Chegny may be on to something, because if there was a timing issue with the ECM, he would get a code
I am also wondering, if his compression was that low, would it still detonate?
Its gotta be damn frikken low not to run at 6*.
 

HotRodPC

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Posts
47,132
Reaction score
9,329
Location
OKC, OK
First Name
HotRod
Truck Year
85 K20 LWB
Truck Model
Silverado
Engine Size
454 - Turbo 400 - 3.73
Yep, I"m wondering if his CEL light is even working or if the ECM is bad and not sending a code to the light? He's not TBI right? Just Feedback Computer carb with Mixture Solenoid and TPS? And the ESC or similar with a knock sensor. Well, if it's detonating that bad, you know the knock sensor isn't working or it should kill that advanced timing through the ECM and ICM.
 

Jims86

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Posts
5,492
Reaction score
135
Location
Patterson,Ca
First Name
Jim
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
K10 Suburban Silverado
Engine Size
5.7 TBI
Yep, I"m wondering if his CEL light is even working or if the ECM is bad and not sending a code to the light? He's not TBI right? Just Feedback Computer carb with Mixture Solenoid and TPS? And the ESC or similar with a knock sensor. Well, if it's detonating that bad, you know the knock sensor isn't working or it should kill that advanced timing through the ECM and ICM.

Yup. Carb function is more than feedback. The M/C solenoid controls off idle fueling until half throttle...Then its all carb.
He has:
TPS
M/C solenoid
CTS
O2
MAP
EGR
VSS behind the speedometer
TCC lockup control
HEI Dist with 7 pin ICM, same as on the 85 TPI Vette, no Knock system.
 

HotRodPC

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Posts
47,132
Reaction score
9,329
Location
OKC, OK
First Name
HotRod
Truck Year
85 K20 LWB
Truck Model
Silverado
Engine Size
454 - Turbo 400 - 3.73
Yup. Carb function is more than feedback. The M/C solenoid controls off idle fueling until half throttle...Then its all carb.
He has:
TPS
M/C solenoid
CTS
O2
MAP
EGR
VSS behind the speedometer
TCC lockup control
HEI Dist with 7 pin ICM, same as on the 85 TPI Vette, no Knock system.

10-4. So he's pretty much a full blown CCC (Computer Command Control) System, and not ESC or C4 (Computer Conrtolled Cat Converter)
 

Jims86

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Posts
5,492
Reaction score
135
Location
Patterson,Ca
First Name
Jim
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
K10 Suburban Silverado
Engine Size
5.7 TBI
10-4. So he's pretty much a full blown CCC (Computer Command Control) System, and not ESC or C4 (Computer Conrtolled Cat Converter)

Yup, 85 and 86 were all CCC, we never had the computer controlled cat, in fact, I have never seen it.
 

HotRodPC

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Posts
47,132
Reaction score
9,329
Location
OKC, OK
First Name
HotRod
Truck Year
85 K20 LWB
Truck Model
Silverado
Engine Size
454 - Turbo 400 - 3.73
Okay I will let u guys know how that goes

Well Cody, so is this is a forum where you don't get any responses???


So now that we've determined this is one of the tad more complicated issues keeping us scratching our heads, give us a little more background. How long have you owned this truck? Did you just buy it? Has it been sitting for awhile? Was anything recently changed? Did the problem just start out of the blue after the truck had been running fine? Was it something that gradually got worse and worse? Give some background, it's important to help in diagnosis since we are not there and can't lay our own eyes, ears and hands on it. So be desrcriptive.

Have you checked the firing order on the plug wires that you mentioned are new. 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2. And you are familiar with where #1 is on the Driver bank up front and 8 lands on the passenger side at the back. You said you're a Rookie, so just checking. Ford does # their different, so if you're hooking them up based on a Ford layout for example then you're off when you think it's right.

This ticking you're mentioning.... Have you heard of a cracked dizzy cap? Could it be that? Also, sometimes you can get so much carbon dust under your cap and the sparks will chase that carbon dust too. Did you check the tip of your rotor cap? It could have broke at the plastic mold and the tab moves off to the side and throws timing way out of whack. I've seen it first hand. I think you need to at least pop dizzy cap off and take a look. Also inspect the carbon button from the coil tip. Look for corrosion on the cap terminals. You might just need a new dizzy cap and rotor. I have a feeling we're going to find out this is something simple being overlooked.
 

HotRodPC

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Posts
47,132
Reaction score
9,329
Location
OKC, OK
First Name
HotRod
Truck Year
85 K20 LWB
Truck Model
Silverado
Engine Size
454 - Turbo 400 - 3.73
Yup, 85 and 86 were all CCC, we never had the computer controlled cat, in fact, I have never seen it.

There was never such thing as a Computer Controlled Cat, it's just the name of the computer system. Actually GM's first computer system on some models. Some Cali Emmisions G bodies got in like 78 or so IIRC, and a few others too I'm sure. It was named C4, meaning computer controlled AND Cat Converter. Don't get me to lying or looking like a special kind of stupid, but soon afterwards, then the CCC was named and was on about everything with Cali Emmisions some where in the early 80's. I'm wanting to say by 82 ish, anything GM that had Cali Emmissions under 8600 GVWR had the CCC.

I may have missed it, is this guy in Cali or New Mexico?
 

HotRodPC

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Posts
47,132
Reaction score
9,329
Location
OKC, OK
First Name
HotRod
Truck Year
85 K20 LWB
Truck Model
Silverado
Engine Size
454 - Turbo 400 - 3.73
Computer Command Control.

[edit]I should read more.

Skimmer !!! You might have that thong adjusted a little tight tonight. :rofl: I have an excuse for not reading, you don't !!!
 

codesteez

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Posts
83
Reaction score
0
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
First Name
Cody
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
305
So I bought the truck it ran crappy and also shifted crappy. I messed with the TV cable got it to run out the gears a little longer it is adjusted as far to the cab as it can go. I've had it maybe three months after all that It ran weird made that tick noice so I changed the plug wires. they were old I thought they were arking out. Meet this chick from my EMT classes she moved back to willits so I take drive a see her. I notice all this wen I can't go up any grades or anything. Around town with overdrive off its okay but still so far from good. I guess I really noticed after I run it for a good amount of time I lose power it sputters pings. The thing that bugs me is advanced it runs so good minus the ping that's were I'm stuck.
 

codesteez

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Posts
83
Reaction score
0
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
First Name
Cody
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
305
I know the carbs r junk honestly the 80s suck in all kinds of ways but I like this motor. People think I'm stupid because I'm gunna put heads and a cam on a 305 but I just can't seem to get it to run right I need to compression test it like some geltlemen on here told me. I know #1 is driver front 2 passenger front and so on. The dizzy cap looks good clean I can post a pic if u want. Oh yea the truck has sat for years last tags were 05 my old boss just did it so he would stop being behind but it has just been sitting. Now I drive it everyday haha
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
44,424
Posts
957,544
Members
36,777
Latest member
paulteigrob
Top