Stranded… could use some ideas.

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7900_Blazer

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Ok, so I did make it to Red River!!!

I’m convinced the issue is vapor lock. The Blazer is running at like 210 degrees and sometimes up to 212 or 215… (It was 100 degrees driving through Pueblo this afternoon) I think flat-land driving in Texas, it was getting just enough actual fuel… pulling hills though and it’s done.

When I dropped the tank for the second time (this morning), I found a wadded up pop-tart wrapper inside the tank, so I’m guessing, it would at times float over and restrict gas flow as well.

I ended up mounting just up from the tank an Edelbrock electric fuel pump I picked up at Oreilly’s; re-ran the gas lines to remove the mechanical fuel pump altogether… pulled some tall hills from Colorado Springs to Red River without issue, but still don’t think it’s running‘ right’, it just sounds like it now has a slightly mis… but runs fine under load.

If I can get it home, I think fuel injection is in my future for both the ‘75 and the ‘71… as I don’t want to go through this again…

I wanted to say how great it was having you all pitching in on this issue, seriously, it was super helpful!
 
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SirRobyn0

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Ok, so I did make it to Red River!!!

I’m convinced the issue is vapor lock. The Blazer is running at like 210 degrees and sometimes up to 212 or 215… (It was 100 degrees driving through Pueblo this afternoon) I think flat-land driving in Texas, it was getting just enough actual fuel… pulling hills though and it’s done.

When I dropped the tank for the second time (this morning), I found a wadded up pop-tart wrapper inside the tank, so I’m guessing, it would at times float over and restrict gas flow as well.

I ended up mounting just up from the tank an Edelbrock electric fuel pump I picked up at Oreilly’s; re-ran the gas lines to remove the mechanical fuel pump altogether… pulled some tall hills from Colorado Springs to Red River without issue, but still don’t think it’s running‘ right’, it just sounds like it now has a slightly mis… but runs fine under load.

If I can get it home, I think fuel injection is in my future for both the ‘75 and the ‘71… as I don’t want to go through this again…

I wanted to say how great it was having you all pitching in on this issue, seriously, it was super helpful!

Glad you have it going, and made it where you were going. You'll get it home I have no doubt. You have stuck with it this long, I'm sure you can get it going again if something were to happen.
 

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I’d question if the pop tart wrapper wasn’t the entire issue all along?

Personally not a fan of the little electric pumps in my limited experience being as my truck is relegated to it ( no fuel pump provisions on my 454 90s engine).
I burned up a few real quick but the prev owners installed them up in the engine bay and marginal power source.
I put in a new one down by the tanks with good clean power as low and close to the tanks as I could. But haven’t run enough gas though it yet to tell.
In time I will likely upgrade to a quality external pump and regulator. Don’t want to touch or butcher any of the OE configuration wiring etc going to the tanks for in tank pumps.

Eventually need to install a momentary rom sensing switch like newer vehicles though. As now the fuel pump runs whenever the key is on.
 

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Short story, I worked for an implement company in college in the mid 70s. They had a tractor that ran in the pull competitions. This thing was an absolute beast but they kept having trouble with it just shutting down mid-pull. It ran fine the rest of the time. After several weeks of going through the fuel injection, turbo and what ever, they finally looked in the fuel tank and found a red shop rag. It was sucking so much fuel it would suck the rag over the inlet during a pull. It would shoot flame and smoke rings up in the air when running =]
 

7900_Blazer

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I few questions/thoughts from this experience:

- At operating temp, my engine coolant is roughly 210 degrees... won't gas with ethanol simple turn to vapor at that temp - requiring moving from a mechanical pump to an electric pump?

- I'm NOT excited about relying on an Edelbrock electric fuel pump: one with many reviewers having experienced their lack of build quality/reliability - are there better 'carbureted' electronic fuel pumps you all use?

- I was convinced the pop-tart wrapper was the problem... but learned differently when my Blazer got up to operating temperature (and I was again on the side of the road)

- Am I left with the fact that all 'modern' (ethanol) fuel has a lower boiling point (turning from liquid to vapor), so having a pump NOT bolted to the side of the motor is the new normal?

- Is there a realistic option to get the operating temperature of my motor down to say 180, and with minimal pressure, never see a vapor lock issue?

- I don't understand why I've never had this happen in Texas...

- I don't understand why in Colorado Springs, running off the gas can in the floorboard got me going again...

- If you say 'the gas coming from the gas can in the floorboard was cooler than the pre-heated gas running through the factory lines down the frame'.. my response would be: 'then why did it still vapor lock when I ran a new rubber line outside the frame rail away from the heat? - I would add that the mechanical fuel pump was the same temperature as the block... so any fuel entering it would turn to vapor..

- My wife's GMC Yukon has 360k... and she'd driving it around the mountains like it's brand new... I've tried to upgrade it for her but she won't budge until she hits 400k.... never touched the electronic fuel pump inside the tank... so how do I replicate that reliability? - Go to EFI?

-To say the least, I'm pretty bummed about the future prospects of just running an old stock Chevy...
 

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Check that glass filter. It's possible the O-rings are leaking enough to be sucking air. I still think your "new" pump is pushing air into the line. Under load, I think its causing the pump to lose its prime.
The are prone to leakage and fire
 

Bextreme04

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The boiling point temperature relies heavily on pressure. The temperature required for a state change decreases as the pressure decreases. This is the same principal used in your AC system and engine cooling system as well. Its why your coolant system is pressurized to 10-12psi, to increase the boiling point. You also have to understand that a state change absorbs a huge amount of energy and thermal transfer is not instantaneous. The real solution to vapor lock is to add a return line. Your wifes tahoe is fuel injected and has the pump submerged in the fuel tank. This means that the pump is cooled by the fuel in the tank and that all of the fuel in the entire fuel line is pressurized to about 56psi, which raises the boiling point to a very high temperature.

A carbureted engine has the pump on the motor, which means that it is pulling a vacuum in the hose(lowering the pressure and therefore lowering the boiling point) every time it pumps. At a higher elevation, the ambient air pressure is also lower, and therefore the boiling point starts out lower to begin with. The boiling point of water at the elevation of Colorado springs is almost 10 degrees cooler than it is at sea level.

Adding a return line allows excess fuel that is not needed to keep the carburetor filled to be cycled back to the fuel tank and will actually allow THAT fuel to vaporize first and actually help cool the pump down a lot. I would personally recommend putting in a three port pump and run the return line back to the tank first. You will likely not have another issue with it. I have a three port pump and have run my truck through the cascades at 3-5,000ft elevation and near 100 degrees with no issue. I had a 74 C20 for a while that would have the same symptoms you are having on hot days. It did not have a return line and I'm pretty sure it was vapor locking when I would get it on the freeway.
 

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There's a light at the end of every tunnel. In your case that light is Edelbrock pro-flo EFI. Trust me, the juice is worth the squeeze. I love my EFI!
 

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The boiling point temperature relies heavily on pressure. The temperature required for a state change decreases as the pressure decreases. This is the same principal used in your AC system and engine cooling system as well. Its why your coolant system is pressurized to 10-12psi, to increase the boiling point. You also have to understand that a state change absorbs a huge amount of energy and thermal transfer is not instantaneous. The real solution to vapor lock is to add a return line. Your wifes tahoe is fuel injected and has the pump submerged in the fuel tank. This means that the pump is cooled by the fuel in the tank and that all of the fuel in the entire fuel line is pressurized to about 56psi, which raises the boiling point to a very high temperature.

A carbureted engine has the pump on the motor, which means that it is pulling a vacuum in the hose(lowering the pressure and therefore lowering the boiling point) every time it pumps. At a higher elevation, the ambient air pressure is also lower, and therefore the boiling point starts out lower to begin with. The boiling point of water at the elevation of Colorado springs is almost 10 degrees cooler than it is at sea level.

Adding a return line allows excess fuel that is not needed to keep the carburetor filled to be cycled back to the fuel tank and will actually allow THAT fuel to vaporize first and actually help cool the pump down a lot. I would personally recommend putting in a three port pump and run the return line back to the tank first. You will likely not have another issue with it. I have a three port pump and have run my truck through the cascades at 3-5,000ft elevation and near 100 degrees with no issue. I had a 74 C20 for a while that would have the same symptoms you are having on hot days. It did not have a return line and I'm pretty sure it was vapor locking when I would get it on the freeway.

Just to confirm, this sounds like an easy ‘fix’…:
- switch existing mechanical fuel pump with a 3 port mechanical fuel pump (what year, make vehicle would I reference at a parts store?)
- run a new line back to the tank
- use one of the existing vent ports in my existing tank fuel sending unit for the return line
- rubber fuel hose would work for the new return line?

How does the pump ‘know’ how much fuel to return to the tank?
 

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@7900_Blazer,

How in the world does your motor run at 210!?? I would have pulled over and shut down or slowed way down to let it cool. I can remember I was in a hot rod convoy driving to Longview, TX on a hot, hot Summer day. And in the lead was this Bucket T, that's a 1929 model T Ford in case anyone doesn't know, he did 85 mph all the way over there. And I'm telling you it was 99* and the concrete had to have been 125* on the interstate. I was watching my temp gauge like a hawk. Well it ran 205 most of the way and had it gotten any higher I guess I would have come to the cruise-in later on. I wasn't going to crack my heads just to be first there and get a good place to park.
So what were you doing that you were running 205-210??!
 

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@7900_Blazer,

How in the world does your motor run at 210!?? I would have pulled over and shut down or slowed way down to let it cool. I can remember I was in a hot rod convoy driving to Longview, TX on a hot, hot Summer day. And in the lead was this Bucket T, that's a 1929 model T Ford in case anyone doesn't know, he did 85 mph all the way over there. And I'm telling you it was 99* and the concrete had to have been 125* on the interstate. I was watching my temp gauge like a hawk. Well it ran 205 most of the way and had it gotten any higher I guess I would have come to the cruise-in later on. I wasn't going to crack my heads just to be first there and get a good place to park.
So what were you doing that you were running 205-210??!
Honestly...idk if its just me but 210 doesnt bother me....:shrug:
 

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@7900_Blazer You have already gotten some great responses but I'll give mine. I'm going to go though your questions one by one, and I'll put my answers in italics.

I few questions/thoughts from this experience:

- At operating temp, my engine coolant is roughly 210 degrees... won't gas with ethanol simple turn to vapor at that temp - requiring moving from a mechanical pump to an electric pump?

No, first of all that's coolant temp and you want the fuel to vaporize as it enters the combustion chamber anyway. I recently drove my square in 110F with a load uphill, down hill on the highway and in traffic, about 100 miles in all. I'm running a mechanical pump with factory return and it never once even tried to vapor lock nor did it act any different from any other day. The only way you'll know for sure is to check the temp of the fuel pump and lines with an IR temp gun, you can get one for like $20 at harbor freight and it'll save you from guessing. Anything below 220 coolant temp is considered normal, and often in traffic the fan clutch won't keep it much below 210 - 220F

- I'm NOT excited about relying on an Edelbrock electric fuel pump: one with many reviewers having experienced their lack of build quality/reliability - are there better 'carbureted' electronic fuel pumps you all use?

At the shop I strongly discourage everyone from going to electric fuel pumps unless they have a good reason like on a carbureted vortec motor. I don't think there is any electric pump, with the exception of modern FI cars, that can even remotely compete with a mechanical pump in terms of reliability.

- I was convinced the pop-tart wrapper was the problem... but learned differently when my Blazer got up to operating temperature (and I was again on the side of the road)

Good to know, but I'd still encourage you to do a temp check on the lines / pump. Also it is not hard to add a return line to a non-return system, or to verify that the return system is functional if it has one in order to keep the mechanical pump.

- Am I left with the fact that all 'modern' (ethanol) fuel has a lower boiling point (turning from liquid to vapor), so having a pump NOT bolted to the side of the motor is the new normal?

No, as I said earlier I'm still rockin a mechanical pump, as are many others. I'd say switching to electrical is uncommon just for vapor locking in an otherwise mostly stock setup. Keep in mind while you are talking about gasoline it's not just ethanol and gas mixed up, it's complex compounds and additives. I have heard it said that gas boils easier than it use to but it's all word of mouth and I've seen zero proof of that. Also only 10% of pump gas is ethanol. Think about it, it's 90% the gas. I don't think that ethanol is to blame. Prove it by filling up at an ethanol free station, often found at farm supply stations as well as others.

- Is there a realistic option to get the operating temperature of my motor down to say 180, and with minimal pressure, never see a vapor lock issue?

You can install a cooler thermostat, if it's got a 195 go 180, if it's got a 180 go 160, but again it has more to do with exhaust temps, which is right next to the pump and lines. I just went rounds with a guy that has a 55 bel air, he had a 195 stat and was getting some mild vapor locking. One of his friends told him a lower temp t-stat would fix it and he wanted a 160, I told him it would not fix his vapor locking, and it didn't. What did fix it was shortening up the rubber line from the frame to the pump. Someone had replaced them in the past used way to much rubber hose and loop it towards the exhaust manifold. I'm not saying there isn't a chance cooler temp T-stat won't help, I'm just saying I haven't seen it help.... Ever.

- I don't understand why I've never had this happen in Texas...

could be the gas. There are lots of additives in gas we have just made a big deal out of the ethanol. Remember lead how about MMT, both were well known additives blended in. There are also additives blended into the mix to increase the boiling point, and they maybe different from place to place and season to season. Also as you said a lot more big hills, you step on the gas hold it there and those manifolds may get hotter then when your cruising in Texas.

- I don't understand why in Colorado Springs, running off the gas can in the floorboard got me going again...

The wrapper in the tank maybe? Maybe it's not vapor lock. We have all through out other ideas so I won't rehash.

- If you say 'the gas coming from the gas can in the floorboard was cooler than the pre-heated gas running through the factory lines down the frame'.. my response would be: 'then why did it still vapor lock when I ran a new rubber line outside the frame rail away from the heat? - I would add that the mechanical fuel pump was the same temperature as the block... so any fuel entering it would turn to vapor..

Seems to me this makes it even less likely to be vapor lock, but vapor locking can be tricky sometimes. Black rubber line is good at absorbing heat so if it was close to the exhaust manifold before you got it to the outside of the frame rail, or for some reason that manifold is getting hot than it should be, but then we'd circle back around to why did it not with the can on the floor. Was this before or after the wrapper was found?

- My wife's GMC Yukon has 360k... and she'd driving it around the mountains like it's brand new... I've tried to upgrade it for her but she won't budge until she hits 400k.... never touched the electronic fuel pump inside the tank... so how do I replicate that reliability? - Go to EFI?

Fix the current problem and move on when or if you nail it down without modifying the factory system we'll all go ah, so that was it! Yes you could go EFI that would solve it but how much you want to spend on a good EFI system? a couple grand, more maybe?!

-To say the least, I'm pretty bummed about the future prospects of just running an old stock Chevy...

It sucks right now I know, I've been there. I was 1,000 miles away from home and punched a 2 foot hole in the gas tank of an Oldsmobile I use to own. Brought it home with a rented truck and trailer, adding that, missed work and cost to repair I was in it way more than the car was worth, and at the time I thought I should have left it in California and driven a rental home, it would have been cheaper. But in the end I enjoyed many more trips in that car. Or the time I was across the country and had reverse go out in another rig. Most of us could probably share breakdown horror stories. The most important thing is to be as prepared as possible, no matter the age of the vehicle keep maintenance up to date, and know that driving a new to you used vehicle of any age could hold weaknesses you don't know about yet. Even still issues occur. Roll with it as best you can and enjoy the rest of your trip, next time you'll have these issues ironed out!
 

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Just to confirm, this sounds like an easy ‘fix’…:
- switch existing mechanical fuel pump with a 3 port mechanical fuel pump (what year, make vehicle would I reference at a parts store?)
- run a new line back to the tank
- use one of the existing vent ports in my existing tank fuel sending unit for the return line
- rubber fuel hose would work for the new return line?

How does the pump ‘know’ how much fuel to return to the tank?
This is a great idea and the best solution to vapor lock. Ideally youd run metal line where you dont need flexibility, but I'd absolutely run it in rubber just cause it'll make the job so much easier.

I don't really know how it knows how much to return but it does. Lots of them came with 3 line pumps but if you ask for one from an 80s model you should be good.
 

Bextreme04

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Just to confirm, this sounds like an easy ‘fix’…:
- switch existing mechanical fuel pump with a 3 port mechanical fuel pump (what year, make vehicle would I reference at a parts store?)
- run a new line back to the tank
- use one of the existing vent ports in my existing tank fuel sending unit for the return line
- rubber fuel hose would work for the new return line?

How does the pump ‘know’ how much fuel to return to the tank?

That's exactly what I would do. You can get a new 4-port sending unit also to make sure you have the correct parts all the way through.

Basically a 2-port pump has an internal relief valve that allows all the fuel not necessary to keep 7-psi of pressure in the line to "bypass" the pump. In the 2-port version it just stops flowing internally(which allows it to get MUCH hotter). In the three port version, the pump pushes a full pulse every time and an internal spring allows 7-psi to go to the carb and bypasses all of the remaining fuel through the return line. This keeps a constant flow of fuel running through the feed, pump, and return lines to help keep it cool.

I got a new fuel pump for mine a few years ago when I first got my truck going, since it had sat for over 10 years. I transferred it over to my new motor last weekend when I was firing it up on the stand and just noticed it is weeping fuel and/or oil from the crimp. I'm not sure if it is the pump going bad or if it had some junk that worked its way in there from a leaky engine bay over the years. It's kind of a pain to change the pump once it's in the engine bay though, so I'm going to just replace it before I stick the new motor in. Cheap insurance.
 

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