Small Block Lifter Premature Wear

[Bextreme04]

What oil did you use? Also, sometimes you can actually wash a bunch of the break-in additive off the lobes if you prime the engine too much. I will usually just do enough priming to see oil start coming out of a single rocker arm, so that I know it has filled the galleys.

 

[Ricko1966]

FWIW I called one of the big oil manufacturers Valvoline I think just because I was concerned about dzzp content in my oil and my assembly lube. Turns out you call one company but it's really a bunch of them under different names. Their tech guy told me run Rotella T4 it is old school, but labeled as diesel,because they don't want everybody running it in everything,but us pre converter flat tappet cam guys need it. Actually most of my stuff has converters and get the proper oil but my Chevelle gets Rotella T4 and it's what I use as break in oil I also change break in oil and filter immediately, while still hot after I break in a cam.

 

[Bextreme04]

FWIW I called one of the big oil manufacturers Valvoline I think just because I was concerned about dzzp content in my oil and my assembly lube. Turns out you call one company but it's really a bunch of them under different names. Their tech guy told me run Rotella T4 it is old school, but labeled as diesel,because they don't want everybody running it in everything,but us pre converter flat tappet cam guys need it. Actually most of my stuff has converters and get the proper oil but my Chevelle gets Rotella T4 and it's what I use as break in oil I also change break in oil and filter immediately, while still hot after I break in a cam.

Be careful. This is probably sufficient levels for after break-in, but it's still borderline. The CK-4 spec they call out does allow higher levels. Any motor oil that has SM or later(SN, SP, etc..) will have reduced levels. I use the T4 for my normal use and have not had issues. I used the Lucas for initial cam breakin and the first 50 miles of engine breakin after I put the engine in the truck. Then I changed the filter and drove it a few hundred more miles before draining the oil, changing the filter again and switching to 10w-30 T4. That was 2 years of daily driving ago and no wiped lifters or cam yet. I used a summit 1102 cam and Comp lifters because it was the only thing I could get at the time(Covid supply chain issues).

 

[Dalton Ream]

What oil did you use? Also, sometimes you can actually wash a bunch of the break-in additive off the lobes if you prime the engine too much. I will usually just do enough priming to see oil start coming out of a single rocker arm, so that I know it has filled the galleys.

The vast majority of what I use is Valvoline synthetic blends. The exceptions being engines circa 1950s and older which I use straight SAE30 in.....

Anyhow, the engine was primed to where most of the rockers were getting oil, but not all.

I've been hearing and reading a lot about guys running T4 and T5 15W-40 oil in older engines and I'm leaning more toward that for future use, especially since I don't drive this truck from October thru April


I'll also add, I got bored and went through the other 15 lifters last night. All of them measured between 1.991" - 2.001" in overall length and all of them had nice even wear patters with an untouched outer ring (about .040" wide), and no dished areas...... so I'm going to assume I had this specific lifter a little too tight and didn't know it??

 

[K10farmtruck]

Cams and kits seem to be junk anymore.

Agreed. Have heard the same from a few different credible engine builders recently. Parts industry as a whole sucks anymore rolling the dice on everything these days. Sign of the times.

 

[SquareRoot]

Flat tappet cams and lifters should be banned. I get the cost is higher with rollers but there's a reason the OEMs quit making flat tappet cams/lifters. Other than cost, I can't think of any reason to use them. Even then, the cost of high zinc oil/additives will make up for it. Carry on.

 

[PrairieDrifter]

Agreed. Have heard the same from a few different credible engine builders recently. Parts industry as a whole sucks anymore rolling the dice on everything these days. Sign of the times.

Yep. Can't trust anything anymore. Shouldn't have to spend $500+ dollars for a good cam kit. Even at that price point you still don't know if you're getting something good.

Building on the cheap ain't so cheap anymore when you have to do things two or three times.

 

[Ricko1966]

IMHO it's because everyone got in the line of thinking cheaper is better,so corners kept getting cut,to keep people buying. So now so many companies have out sourced everything and so many good companies have gone under or lowered their standards to keep from going under that good parts are almost impossible to find. If somethings not broke,I don't fix it,chances are it will be broke very soon after it's fixed. On camshafts the first 20 minutes are critical good components,not best priced components is critical correct oil is critical ,using break in springs,verifiying that the pushrods,thus the lifters are spinning with the engine running and remembering flat tappet cars didn't run highway gears and overdrive, the camshaft aren't getting enough oil to lubricate and cool the cam and lifters at the rpms people are spinning their engines these days

 

[SirRobyn0]

I'm seeing this thread kind of late but I want to reiterate a few points. Yea, oil has changed in leaps and bounds and in many ways it's been good. We see very, very few engines with sludge issues, where it use to be common place, I'd say that's the biggest plus to the changes. But zinc levels are wayyyy down. 500 - 800ppm, in the 80's it was 1,200 - 1,500, and don't forget you need a dose of phosphorus with that in similar levels. Why is zinc important? It coats moving parts and acts as part of the lubrication chain, and can take the pressure between the cam and lifter surface without breaking down (or being pushed out)

You absolutely HAVE to use a high zinc break in oil on a flat tappet cams and lifts TODAY, in the past there was enough zinc to pour in whatever and get away with it. Lucas break-in oil is great and has NEVER let us down, nor has Valvoline racing oil. Typically I tell guys that have had new motors installed to run the Valvoline oil for at least the first few changes preferably until there is 10K on the motor and the cam and lifters are well seasoned. After that pick what you want, unless it's high lift cam. Most desiel oil is going to be 1,000 - 1,200ppm zinc, great for a little extra protection in an engine used hard, but even though it's probably enough for break-in, once you wipe a cam and lifter or lifters now you have circulated some fine particulate of oil throughout your motor. Will it live though that? probably. Is it extra risk. Yes, high zinc break in oil, and running high zinc for the first few changes is cheap insurance.

Like Rick said and again it is cheap insurance even though you might make a mess, check to make sure those push rods are spinning! No spin also equals cam and lifter failure too.

Now in the case of any lifter that came out like that, the cam has the opposite wear. I'm sorry your not going to be able to see that wear on the cam using a scope. But think about it. If the lifter wears concave the cam literally has to have to opposite wear on it, or the lifter would simply be worn down flat, which it is not.

 

[hogdaddy]

Go roller and in-tank electric fuel pump!

 

[DoubleDingo]

Besides zinc, long heat cycles to harden that cam. No short drives.

 

[QBuff02]

Here's a little fuel for thought. This was an oil sample I had done on my built big block in my K30, the engine only has about 1,500ish miles on it in total at the time of this sample. So it's technically on the edge of being "broke in" at this point. I run Valvoline VR1 20w50 oil in it and on recommendation from the engine builder I used a small high concentration (probably 3 oz bottle) of zinc additive from the engine builder for break in forward. We used Brad Penn break in oil at initial start up. What's interesting is the VR1 is a high zinc oil (but how much is conflicting) plus the bottle of additive actually made too much zinc in the oil. Talking with the engine builder and the oil sample people, basically what happens is TOO MUCH zinc in your oil actually can have a reverse effect of it's intended purposes. I was told to think about it as the old woman who puts on too much makeup and that it can clog the pores on her face by doing so. The same happens in the engine and can cause premature wear as the pores of the engine can be clogged by the excess zinc, which also runs up the phosphorous levels and can cause additional wear. Apparently the ideal levels of zinc and phosphorous are somewhere around 1,300ppm and 1,200 ppm respectively. A couple hundred ppm over that is nothing cause for alarm as there is a somewhat wide tipping point of when you get to be "too much" in the oil, the same can be said about not having ENOUGH of the additives in the oil. But after many discussions with people in the know and research, anything less than 1,000 is bad and anything more than about 1,700 is also bad. The zinc is supposed to act as a shear "cushion" between metal to metal wear parts. Also why too much can be a bad thing. So what did we do? We opted to NOT add the small bottle of zinc additive this oil change, to use VR1 20w50 exclusively and then resample it in 500 miles to see where the levels were at that time. In all of this back and forth the thing I kept hearing was people want to build a high performance engine and then skimp on using the correct oil and wonder why they have problems. "well diesel oil is so and so, and i've heard this and that about diesel oil." When in actuality diesel oil has high detergent additives and even most current diesel spec oil is bordering on not having enough zinc either. All the "experts" I talked to said if you're going to spend potentially several thousand dollars on an engine, why would you use cheap oil or wrong spec oil in it? And basically to use the right oil in the first place. Now i'm not saying I don't know people who have used these types of oils (and continue to do so) with success, but for me i'd take what the recommendations are and try to start off on the right foot with an expensive build. Interestingly enough, the sample shows high lead content caused by blow by as they claim (and you'd think fuel dilution) as I run Sunoco standard 110 octane leaded fuel, but there is basically NO fuel dilution in the oil. However, there were a lot of starts and stops and short runs not getting up to operating temp on the engine during this time and we suspect not enough heat to burn off some of this. But also if the engine is still wearing in at this point or creating excess wear by too much zinc in the oil then I have a couple issues going on that might be rectified by running LESS additive. We also changed the oil filter housing as we suspected the filter bypass might have been excessively bypassing when cold due to the oil pressure differential through the filter when cold. It will be interesting to see what the next sample from the engine shows.

 

[WFO]

I've been using this in my 69 Chevelle SS.
It only comes in 20W-50, but it never gets driven when it's real cold out, plus it lives in a heated shop.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09QXWLY2Y/

 

[SirRobyn0]

Besides zinc, long heat cycles to harden that cam. No short drives.

Right that's a really good point to and is part of the reason most cam manufactures recommend that you fire the motor and run it to 2K for 20 minutes. And you HAVE to have enough zinc in the oil during this process. Some will want you to shut the engine off let it cool for a bit and then do it again

And it's no joke there needs to be as little dicking around as possible during this process. The engine needs to fire and run for that period without overheating, which can sometimes be a trick if it's a rebuild and everything is dry.

At the shop what I do and this applies to either a cam install or a fresh rebuilt engine. Is to have break in oil in the crankcase, we have a large fan that I setup in front of the vehicle to prevent overheating, turn the fan on, have the timing close enough to fire, with a timing light already installed. Fire it, add coolant if needed, set the timing real quick, this shoud take just a couple minutes and I'm on the throttle and have her at 2K. If one of the other guys is the installer I will usually come over for this part of it to make sure that cam gets broken in properly.

 

[BurbanPena]

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this is a must watch this explains the cam issue and how to check the cam before installing