I think I just got screwed. Advice?

[bluex]

From a consumer perspective I can give an example of how people routinely get it up the ass.
I had an F150 that had tranny issues on warranty w/32k miles. Hard shifts from 2nd to 3rd. Dealer fixed it saying the valve body needed cleaning.
At 44k miles the tranny **** the bed and cost me $2400 to rebuild. Dealer gave me a break because it was just out of warranty. How nice of him.....
At 105k miles it started shifting hard again from 2nd to 3rd. First dealer quoted me $3400 to R&R with a rebuilt unit. Second dealer quoted me $2700 for same R&R.
Both refused to look at the valve body as detailed in their national repair database because it was now over 100k miles.
After getting totally pissed I went home, put the truck up on the ramps, dropped the pan, filter and valve body only to find a broken clip and bent spring inside the valve body. Took the clip and spring to AAMCO who found replacements in a spare parts bin (Service manager didn't charge me anything for them). Took them home, put it all together.
New filter and fluid cost me a total of $75 and runs perfect fours years and 40k miles later.

So not to pick on you but just to reply to your example here. The problem with this is you went to a dealer, but its also partly the way the consumers and our current culture have changed the repair industry as a whole.

I can remember when I was a kid at a certain point in his life my father was DONE working on vehicles and started taking them to shops. Then you would drop them off, tell the problem, it would be diagnosed, repaired an youd pick it up an pay the bill. They generally called an told you the problem and what the total would be before actually fixing it.

Now a days people want to know exactly whats wrong with it an how much it will cost to repair the moment it's dropped off or based off some super vague description over the phone. In your example if you had let them diagnose it the bill would have been lower for sure since a complete r&r wasn't necessary.

I have tried an tried to just tell people our hourly rate an they don't want to hear it, they just want a total for the whole job. This makes me quote a higher price that's worst case example in my mind so I dont lose at the end of the day when things go wrong. Our entrie culture has changed from a fix it/make it last to just replace it as fast an cheap as possible. This is why you wind up with a quote for a new trans when all it needed was a few parts. We've changed to culture that just throws money/parts at a problem till it goes away instead of taking the time to investigate an fix exactly what's wrong.

I guess my point is if people would be ok paying a hrs labor for a diagnosis things like that wouldn't happen. The majority of consumers think that's outrageous though and they just want to know a total and it better not be over that amount when your done either, regardless of what you found or what happened while in the process of fixing it.

 

[CSFJ]

As far as the whole customer supplied parts thing goes, I think this sums it up pretty well.

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[CSFJ]

So not to pick on you but just to reply to your example here. The problem with this is you went to a dealer, but its also partly the way the consumers and our current culture have changed the repair industry as a whole.

I can remember when I was a kid at a certain point in his life my father was DONE working on vehicles and started taking them to shops. Then you would drop them off, tell the problem, it would be diagnosed, repaired an youd pick it up an pay the bill. They generally called an told you the problem and what the total would be before actually fixing it.

Now a days people want to know exactly whats wrong with it an how much it will cost to repair the moment it's dropped off or based off some super vague description over the phone. In your example if you had let them diagnose it the bill would have been lower for sure since a complete r&r wasn't necessary.

I have tried an tried to just tell people our hourly rate an they don't want to hear it, they just want a total for the whole job. This makes me quote a higher price that's worst case example in my mind so I dont lose at the end of the day when things go wrong. Our entrie culture has changed from a fix it/make it last to just replace it as fast an cheap as possible. This is why you wind up with a quote for a new trans when all it needed was a few parts. We've changed to culture that just throws money/parts at a problem till it goes away instead of taking the time to investigate an fix exactly what's wrong.

I guess my point is if people would be ok paying a hrs labor for a diagnosis things like that wouldn't happen. The majority of consumers think that's outrageous though and they just want to know a total and it better not be over that amount when your done either, regardless of what you found or what happened while in the process of fixing it.

This is the absolute truth. Nobody is willing to pay for diag anymore. I saw this repeatedly every day at the dealership. The service writers don't even know how to sell diag. Oddly enough, the worst offenders were doctors. Not that it was an exclusive trait to them, but you would think if anyone would understand the concept....

 

[varmit86]

Can you go back to the shop and ask for a copy of the parts list for your "own" records and for possible warranty on parts? This may get you an answer without being "disrespesctful". Worth a try?

This is a good idea to get an idea of if you got screwed or not, you really don't know untill you know what parts were used.

 

[thecantaloupeman]

So not to pick on you but just to reply to your example here. The problem with this is you went to a dealer, but its also partly the way the consumers and our current culture have changed the repair industry as a whole.

I can remember when I was a kid at a certain point in his life my father was DONE working on vehicles and started taking them to shops. Then you would drop them off, tell the problem, it would be diagnosed, repaired an youd pick it up an pay the bill. They generally called an told you the problem and what the total would be before actually fixing it.

Now a days people want to know exactly whats wrong with it an how much it will cost to repair the moment it's dropped off or based off some super vague description over the phone. In your example if you had let them diagnose it the bill would have been lower for sure since a complete r&r wasn't necessary.

I have tried an tried to just tell people our hourly rate an they don't want to hear it, they just want a total for the whole job. This makes me quote a higher price that's worst case example in my mind so I dont lose at the end of the day when things go wrong. Our entrie culture has changed from a fix it/make it last to just replace it as fast an cheap as possible. This is why you wind up with a quote for a new trans when all it needed was a few parts. We've changed to culture that just throws money/parts at a problem till it goes away instead of taking the time to investigate an fix exactly what's wrong.

I guess my point is if people would be ok paying a hrs labor for a diagnosis things like that wouldn't happen. The majority of consumers think that's outrageous though and they just want to know a total and it better not be over that amount when your done either, regardless of what you found or what happened while in the process of fixing it.

Well I did pay for an inspection beforehand and they looked it over and told me the bushings and ball joints were bad. I guess it was just faster for them to replace the whole assembly than just those parts.

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[bluex]

Well I did pay for an inspection beforehand and they looked it over and told me the bushings and ball joints were bad. I guess it was just faster for them to replace the whole assembly than just those parts.

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It is, the bushings are very labor intensive to replace.

I was mainly just pointing out the general mindset of most people is all.

 

[MikeB]

He's had the parts store deliver moog parts to him with the same part number, in different boxes, manufactured with different materials, (components where different colored, obviously different metal) and in the case of tie rod ends, had different length threaded tails on them.

Same part number in different box implies to me that it's not A Moog part. As I mentioned above, most of the copy-cats use Moog part numbers. For example Moog K6117T is the lower ball joint for my truck. At rockauto.com I see at least three other "manufacturers" using "6117" in their part numbers. One of them costs only $4.84. If anyone thinks that's a Moog part, then I have a bridge...

Also, O'Reilly Auto Parts used to carry a store brand (Autodrive?) that a counter guy told me was made by Moog. Looked pretty much the same as the Moog part, and P/N was the same, but the metal insert was different. I see where they now have MasterPro parts that use Moog numbers with a price that's 40%-50% less. No way you're going to convince me it's the same part, certainly not internally.

Has anyone used ball joints sold under the "Rare Parts" brand? They stock the usual name brand parts, but they can build-to-order in their plant in Stockton, CA. http://rareparts.com/about-us

 

[thecantaloupeman]

Same part number in different box implies to me that it's not A Moog part. As I mentioned above, most of the copy-cats use Moog part numbers. For example Moog K6117T is the lower ball joint for my truck. At rockauto.com I see at least three other "manufacturers" using "6117" in their part numbers. One of them costs only $4.84. If anyone thinks that's a Moog part, then I have a bridge...

Also, O'Reilly Auto Parts used to carry a store brand (Autodrive?) that a counter guy told me was made by Moog. Looked pretty much the same as the Moog part, and P/N was the same, but the metal insert was different. I see where they now have MasterPro parts that use Moog numbers with a price that's 40%-50% less. No way you're going to convince me it's the same part, certainly not internally.

Has anyone used ball joints sold under the "Rare Parts" brand? They stock the usual name brand parts, but they can build-to-order in their plant in Stockton, CA. http://rareparts.com/about-us

Rare auto parts is sold by advance I think. Precision is a house brand just like duralast and driveworks. Are you saying rare is made by Moog? I'm misunderstanding you I think.

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[Backfoot100]

So not to pick on you but just to reply to your example here. The problem with this is you went to a dealer, but its also partly the way the consumers and our current culture have changed the repair industry as a whole.



Now a days people want to know exactly whats wrong with it an how much it will cost to repair the moment it's dropped off or based off some super vague description over the phone. In your example if you had let them diagnose it the bill would have been lower for sure since a complete r&r wasn't necessary.

I don't think in this case you could assume they would've found a simple valve body issue and restructured the bill accordingly. I didn't want to get into it as its a rather long story.
My assumption was that they (the dealer) have this national database with my specific vehicle history and they're the ones most qualified to access that database and then do the repairs. Shame on me.

To quote Paul Harvey..."And now, the rest of the story".....


I did have the second dealer diagnose the issue. They said all the wiring and everything outside the tranny was good but there was definitely something wrong in the tranny. It cost me $125 for that diagnosis.
If I wanted to do T&M to try and fix it they would do that but they insisted that their standard operation for anything more than 100k miles is to remove it and open it up before quoting me a price to repair. That would be 8 hours labor at $100/hr to get me that quote plus the associated T&M to repair. If I decided I was not going to proceed it was still going to cost me a minimum of $800.
I specifically asked about just dropping the valve body to inspect based on the national repair records being a known issue before and was refused. Again, their reasoning was it had over 100k miles and not their standard operating procedure.

This is the point where I was totally pissed. No matter what I did, it had already cost me $125 for them to tell me there is a problem in the tranny.
So I could give them another $800 for them to tell me what was wrong and how much above and beyond that price would be to repair.
Or just give them $2700 to R&R the tranny.

After I removed the valve body and saw the problem I took it over to a good friend who's a Chrysler mechanic who specializes in trannies. I knew that there was no way that he would know a Ford tranny or if that was the problem for sure but he did confirm that it could certainly be a problem or a part of the problem.
I told him what the dealer had told me as far as the discovery process and he said....in the dealers defense....that any Chrysler dealer would probably do the exact same thing with any vehicle over 100k miles. That's the way our society and bigger businesses have evolved.

I have to assume going to an independent shop would've been a much more pleasant experience. I'm sure explaining this story they would've easy dropped the valve body and found the issue in a few minutes as I did. You just don't assume they have a Ford certified tranny tech on staff and your only option is a dealer.

So you're absolutely correct. Our culture has changed. People would rather spend $600 monthly to ensure they have a warranty then worry about dealing with these kinds of issues. Vehicles are more throw away now then "drive until the wheels fall off". Most people don't know what it really takes to repair these cars today and they don't want to know. They just want it to work and when it doesn't they feel they're going to get screwed before they even come into the shop.

Its also a problem when you only hear about the bad examples like this one. I have several more that I could get into. I also have some fantastic success stories from dealers as well as independent shops that really took care of a customer the right way. Unfortunately, you don't hear much about those.

 

[thecantaloupeman]

I don't think in this case you could assume they would've found a simple valve body issue and restructured the bill accordingly. I didn't want to get into it as its a rather long story.
My assumption was that they (the dealer) have this national database with my specific vehicle history and they're the ones most qualified to access that database and then do the repairs. Shame on me.

To quote Paul Harvey..."And now, the rest of the story".....


I did have the second dealer diagnose the issue. They said all the wiring and everything outside the tranny was good but there was definitely something wrong in the tranny. It cost me $125 for that diagnosis.
If I wanted to do T&M to try and fix it they would do that but they insisted that their standard operation for anything more than 100k miles is to remove it and open it up before quoting me a price to repair. That would be 8 hours labor at $100/hr to get me that quote plus the associated T&M to repair. If I decided I was not going to proceed it was still going to cost me a minimum of $800.
I specifically asked about just dropping the valve body to inspect based on the national repair records being a known issue before and was refused. Again, their reasoning was it had over 100k miles and not their standard operating procedure.

This is the point where I was totally pissed. No matter what I did, it had already cost me $125 for them to tell me there is a problem in the tranny.
So I could give them another $800 for them to tell me what was wrong and how much above and beyond that price would be to repair.
Or just give them $2700 to R&R the tranny.

After I removed the valve body and saw the problem I took it over to a good friend who's a Chrysler mechanic who specializes in trannies. I knew that there was no way that he would know a Ford tranny or if that was the problem for sure but he did confirm that it could certainly be a problem or a part of the problem.
I told him what the dealer had told me as far as the discovery process and he said....in the dealers defense....that any Chrysler dealer would probably do the exact same thing with any vehicle over 100k miles. That's the way our society and bigger businesses have evolved.

I have to assume going to an independent shop would've been a much more pleasant experience. I'm sure explaining this story they would've easy dropped the valve body and found the issue in a few minutes as I did. You just don't assume they have a Ford certified tranny tech on staff and your only option is a dealer.

So you're absolutely correct. Our culture has changed. People would rather spend $600 monthly to ensure they have a warranty then worry about dealing with these kinds of issues. Vehicles are more throw away now then "drive until the wheels fall off". Most people don't know what it really takes to repair these cars today and they don't want to know. They just want it to work and when it doesn't they feel they're going to get screwed before they even come into the shop.

Its also a problem when you only hear about the bad examples like this one. I have several more that I could get into. I also have some fantastic success stories from dealers as well as independent shops that really took care of a customer the right way. Unfortunately, you don't hear much about those.

Yeah, well that's why I'm hoping I can just learn to do it all myself. I will probably never buy a new car. Even if they were easy to work on which they aren't, old cars have more character and I love them. That was pretty much the whole point of me getting a classic as my first car so I can learn to take care of it and repair it myself. I enjoy doing that sort of thing. And it will feel good when I fix something myself and get to go drive it and think "I did that all by myself". Then I don't need to worry about anyone else screwing up the job or overcharging me. If I make sure I do it right, I don't have to question whether or not someone else did. I bet I'll save so much money by just sticking with older cars that I can fix myself. People always think that newer cars are more reliable for some reason and when their car breaks, rather than fixing it they just buy a new car and don't realize how "throw away" cars have gotten. They just go out and blow 30k and get themselves a nice hefty car payment to worry about, when they could've bought a used car and learned to take care of it themselves and saved loads of money.

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[CSFJ]

Same part number in different box implies to me that it's not A Moog part. As I mentioned above, most of the copy-cats use Moog part numbers. For example Moog K6117T is the lower ball joint for my truck. At rockauto.com I see at least three other "manufacturers" using "6117" in their part numbers. One of them costs only $4.84. If anyone thinks that's a Moog part, then I have a bridge...

Also, O'Reilly Auto Parts used to carry a store brand (Autodrive?) that a counter guy told me was made by Moog. Looked pretty much the same as the Moog part, and P/N was the same, but the metal insert was different. I see where they now have MasterPro parts that use Moog numbers with a price that's 40%-50% less. No way you're going to convince me it's the same part, certainly not internally.

Has anyone used ball joints sold under the "Rare Parts" brand? They stock the usual name brand parts, but they can build-to-order in their plant in Stockton, CA. http://rareparts.com/about-us

If both parts are stamped moog, then they're probably both moog. This guy has been in the business long enough to know if there's funny business going on. The company that bought the moog name, bought it for the name and reputation, not because they planned on keeping their quality control. Especially when it was cheaper to have it made overseas.

 

[bucket]

Well that's what bothers me a bit. We asked the shop about it when they took a look at that extra loose nut, and they claimed the parts were "similar quality to Moog". I dunno if they just said that because it's greasable or what, but I feel like they lied to me. Unless they know something I don't about precision parts vs Moog parts. But I just don't feel like we should trust them anymore. I definitely am thankful my parents had it done for me because now I can drive it and not worry about it for a while, but it's more of just the fact that I am wondering if my parents should continue getting their car fixed there (or me for that matter). You know? I mean they do guarantee the part for 3 years or 36,000 miles so I have no idea if that's a good warranty or not, but I'm curious if they used Moog parts, would the warranty have been the same or would they have said it was a lifetime.

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That's a good warranty. It's as good as, if not better than, the original GM warranty. I don't know when GM went to the standard 3/36 deal.

Same part number in different box implies to me that it's not A Moog part. As I mentioned above, most of the copy-cats use Moog part numbers. For example Moog K6117T is the lower ball joint for my truck. At rockauto.com I see at least three other "manufacturers" using "6117" in their part numbers. One of them costs only $4.84. If anyone thinks that's a Moog part, then I have a bridge...

Also, O'Reilly Auto Parts used to carry a store brand (Autodrive?) that a counter guy told me was made by Moog. Looked pretty much the same as the Moog part, and P/N was the same, but the metal insert was different. I see where they now have MasterPro parts that use Moog numbers with a price that's 40%-50% less. No way you're going to convince me it's the same part, certainly not internally.

Has anyone used ball joints sold under the "Rare Parts" brand? They stock the usual name brand parts, but they can build-to-order in their plant in Stockton, CA. http://rareparts.com/about-us

We used Rare Parts at the shop from time to time. But only when we couldn't find something local, which wasn't very often at all.

 

[82c10stepside]

I didn't read the whole post. But I do work in auto parts. I often have people come in and price parts then complain that a shop charged them more. My response is always the same. I ask " did they give you and estimate? " They say yes. I ask " did you tell them to do the repair?" They say yes. End of story

 

[eskimomann209]

Well that's the thing. My parents really trust them, and they've helped me out a few times in the past and they are a family run business. They are all pretty friendly so I find it odd that this happened. I was wondering if somehow they mistakenly put precision parts on instead of Moog.

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Well this was interesting to read...

So this shop you trust had helped you (and your family) a lot before right?
I believe that’s what I read.. and now that shop charges you one time what you believe to be too expensive. As a result you want to hang them out to dry and stop going there??
Seems kinda one sided no? My pops owns a housing remodel business and we “help” people a lot and sometimes on the third or fourth job it’s time to recoup some of those favor loans... it all comes out in the wash ... it’s also risky because we have given people breaks with promise of future jobs. Drive past the house later and they got another cat in there working on it probably with the same promise of recouping costs on the next one..
I dunno man seems like the shop isn’t the problem here

 

[bluex]

Well this was interesting to read...

So this shop you trust had helped you (and your family) a lot before right?
I believe that’s what I read.. and now that shop charges you one time what you believe to be too expensive. As a result you want to hang them out to dry and stop going there??
Seems kinda one sided no? My pops owns a housing remodel business and we “help” people a lot and sometimes on the third or fourth job it’s time to recoup some of those favor loans... it all comes out in the wash ... it’s also risky because we have given people breaks with promise of future jobs. Drive past the house later and they got another cat in there working on it probably with the same promise of recouping costs on the next one..
I dunno man seems like the shop isn’t the problem here

You know what has been eye opening to me since starting a shop? People I only considered acquaintances at best before have no problem supporting me an the shop and are glad to pay for work or parts without dickering over prices. A large portion of my "friends" want a deal, keep mentioning how so an so is cheaper, can you match that, ya but whats "my price" etc.

That honestly was a shocker to me an kinda a rough pill to swallow. They will support a large company no problem but one of their friends is trying to follow their passion an dreams an they nit-pick it to death.