Frustrated 87 GMC owner!

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eric 87

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Kentucky
First Name
Eric
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
Keep in mind that computer you want to eliminate also controls the distributer.
yes sir, And what a waste of money I have already thrown at this problem. I just bought a new computer distributor. And if I do the swap that will be no good as will all the new sensors etc. Good money chasing bad apply here?
Today in chasing the code 42 issue and having gone through all the grounds I could find and the wiring harness and plugs to said sensors distributor etc and not finding anything I thought let me go the day before Tday and get an ignition control module since these things go out in weird ways. Most I have had go out did it all at once when parked. When I went to start again they crank but never fire. But this code 42 is EST and I used diagrams and diagnosis loaded online. I felt it would take too much time to go wire by wire in the ECM harness and check voltage and ohms. Let me cut through and replace the component that the diagnosis said would be the problem over and over. If it didn't fix I now have to go through the wiring with probes etc. AND THE COMPUTER WAS A WASTE OF MONEY AS WELL SINCE I REPLACED IT LAST WEEK.
One other question. The other possibilities for that code is Dis which is trucks with no distributor so that doesn't apply.
The last was fuel cutoff relay open ground or circuit....is that under the frame rail or is it on the firewall. I have two relays on the firewall that look identical. One is fuel relay but what is the other. And is the fuel relay the same as fuel CUTOFF relay? I thought that was in event of low oil pressure. I can't find it anywhere or how to check it.
 

eric 87

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Kentucky
First Name
Eric
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
I guess for me one of the things is that I could not consider an engine replacement over a runabilty issue simply because I don't have that kind of money to throw at a truck unless I really had too. Get that code 42 sorted out. That is very likely your stalling issue.
Well just because I can afford it doesn't mean I want to afford it. I would rather keep those funds in the bank. But I have done what I can on the Code 42 today. I have worked on checking wires and replacing the ignition control module which kept coming up in diagnostic diagrams for the EST side of the code.
The other possible under that code is the Fuel cutoff relay. Not sure where it is located. I know the fuel relay is on the firewall but there is an identical relay next to it on the same bracket. So I have to research THAT CUTOFF relay. Since it is running fine currently within a mile of the house and back after doing the ignition module install I figured it wouldn't be the fuel system.
Takes me back to going through the harness in all these components one by one with a multimeter and test light probe checking ohms and voltage.
Was reading to disconnect the plugs from the ECM and test all the circuits.
At some point wasting money on a new setup sounds good or just getting rid of the truck. I bought the wrong year. Should have bought an 85 or 86 pre computer. Or my favorite the 62-66. I do love the square body though. And it was my favorite lol. Trying to hang in there. I want the truck to be as nice as a show truck but to drive it. And run as dependable as a new truck without all the electronic headaches. I didn't know 87 was the first year of the computer lol. NOW I DO!
Will take it to shop in two weeks. He is covered up until then. But in the time being I hate driving it with that SES light looking like Rudolph's nose!
I will say it ran great awhile ago. Will keep chasing and post what I end up finding.

The engine replacement was a two fold idea. Gets rid of the electronics AND with a new engine you at least have the idea you can get in and drive across country if you choose. If it breaks down it will surprise you instead of wondering WHEN its going to happen.
 

WP29P4A

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Mike
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
Sierra Classic V1500
Engine Size
350 TBI
My son's truck (1987 GMC V1500 350ci tbi) has only one fuel relay on the firewall. It has a short wire with connector for testing the pumps. I read all about the replays before I worked on my son's truck on this site, but I can't remember the details about second relay. The information is on this site somewhere.
 

WP29P4A

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Hopefully your starter wires look better than this. This is one of the causes of my son's truck having intermittent stalling and starting issues. The engineer who decided to put the main electrical connection on the starter is not my favorite person. For some reason a previous owner bypassed the blue wire and ran a new one, found that when I opened up the wiring loom to the starter and it had wires and colors not on the wiring diagrams. i am guessing PO bypassed the cut-off relay to the fuel tanks instead of finding and fixing the problem.

The truck actually ran with the fusible link toasted, just not as often as my son would like. lol
 

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SirRobyn0

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Well just because I can afford it doesn't mean I want to afford it. I would rather keep those funds in the bank. But I have done what I can on the Code 42 today. I have worked on checking wires and replacing the ignition control module which kept coming up in diagnostic diagrams for the EST side of the code.
The other possible under that code is the Fuel cutoff relay. Not sure where it is located. I know the fuel relay is on the firewall but there is an identical relay next to it on the same bracket. So I have to research THAT CUTOFF relay. Since it is running fine currently within a mile of the house and back after doing the ignition module install I figured it wouldn't be the fuel system.
Takes me back to going through the harness in all these components one by one with a multimeter and test light probe checking ohms and voltage.
Was reading to disconnect the plugs from the ECM and test all the circuits.
At some point wasting money on a new setup sounds good or just getting rid of the truck. I bought the wrong year. Should have bought an 85 or 86 pre computer. Or my favorite the 62-66. I do love the square body though. And it was my favorite lol. Trying to hang in there. I want the truck to be as nice as a show truck but to drive it. And run as dependable as a new truck without all the electronic headaches. I didn't know 87 was the first year of the computer lol. NOW I DO!
Will take it to shop in two weeks. He is covered up until then. But in the time being I hate driving it with that SES light looking like Rudolph's nose!
I will say it ran great awhile ago. Will keep chasing and post what I end up finding.

The engine replacement was a two fold idea. Gets rid of the electronics AND with a new engine you at least have the idea you can get in and drive across country if you choose. If it breaks down it will surprise you instead of wondering WHEN its going to happen.
I'm just going to quote you and respond to one thing "And run as dependable as a new truck without all the electronic headaches." Some people will say that can't be done, cause it's an old truck and I want you to know that yes it can. Whatever path you end up going down, if done right, once you have the truck fixed up mechanically it will be at least close to as dependable as a new truck. Take me for example, my 84 is an unrestored rig with a 305 and 700R4. It doesn't look like a new truck, but it does look good, more importantly it is reliable. I run a small farm and that old truck and I will take 100 mile one way trips for feed, coming back loaded, sometimes with my 18' trailer. My truck has to be reliable, and if you hang in there and stick with it, your truck will be just as reliable. I'm lucky in that my truck has received a lifetime of good care as a driven vehicle, but I've also bought vehicles that had serious issues. Some so bad I didn't want to continue on, but eventually turned them into good rigs. I guess this my little pep talk. Stick with it and one way or another good things will come!
 

TRISTANTATTOOS

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THOMAS
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C20
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350
I am probably late to the party, but I might have some helpful insight. This sounds VERY close to what happened to my 85 Silverado. In my case, it kept killing batteries. Not outright killing them... everything would seem fine for a while, then out of the blue, the battery would not have the gumption to turn over the engine. Mine is a pieced and patched together son-of-a-mechanic special that a girlfriend/ex/whatever picked up for $500 a decade before we met, and her prack ex husband allowed NO money to be invested in the truck (read as: no oil changes, tune ups, new hoses, NOTHING). As you can guess, she needed some serious TLC. So much so, that when I started working on her and the list of issues grew, were diagnosed, and addressed, she eventually became mine just on sheer time and parts costs invested (they eventually added up to way more than she had paid for the vehicle). But I digress. This truck went from rough to running like a top, I mean the 350 runs smoother than "modern" ones less than five years old. So it puzzled me as to why she was eating batteries. She had the same intermittent glitches and issues you describe, up to and including the voltage "sag" at random times, including when hitting the brake pedal. Then one fine night in Reno, NV, about an hour from my northern California mountain town home, leaving a 24-hour grocery store at around one in the morning, she failed to start. I mean nothing... no click, no clatter, no whine, grind, fuel pump sound, nothing. No lights, either, including dash lights. Nada. It was 18 degrees out in mid-October. Cold, but should not have killed what was a pretty strong battery in under an hour. A kind lady passing by noticed my hood up, stopped and offered a jump start, and she fired right up. After sitting in the parking lot a good 30 minutes running the engine a good bit above idle to give the battery a chance to build up some juice, I dropped her in gear and headed home. No sooner were we on the highway and up to speed, I knew I was in trouble. Something felt "off", and within moments the headlights seemed dimmer, and throttle response was "mushy". We had the heater running, and the headlights were on, but no other draws on the electrical system... which sagged noticeably when I applied the brakes.
That was a damn near terrifying drive home. There was no "moonlit night" driving to save me... which was painfully obvious as the lights grew more and more dim, the road harder to see... we slowed to roll through he inspection station at the state line, and accelerating to return to highway speed was when it happened. I thought my engine was going to explode. She began to lurch and buck, emitting a series of ear splitting pops and bangs that sounded like someone had lit off a metal lunch box full of M-80 firecrackers in an empty bus station dumpster, the headlights and running lights cut out entirely, then back on, then off, strobing on and off randomly as the engine misfired over and over and I lost all throttle response and the truck slowed to a crawl. I steered sharply towards the berm, intentionally planting my driver side wheels squarely on the "wake up you idiot" divets just inside the edge line, manually shifted down through the gears while feathering the gas pedal, cutting off the heater blower entirely as I did so. She sputtered for what seemed an eternity, then slowly smoothed out as the divets rattled my teeth nearly out of my skull, and gradually picked up speed until I could merge back into the highway and accelerate to normal speed. With thirty miles yet to get home, I could only operate the headlights on low beam or the problem began again.
It was a long, cold, white knuckled drive home, as the low beams dwindled and disappeared within five minutes of the inspection station incident. NO accessories could be used. I figured at this point that it could only be an alternator issue. This early guess was supported by the fact that when I arrived by some miracle in my driveway after having driven 47 miles at highway speed on a moonless night with no headlights, dash or running lights, when I shut off the engine and attempted to start it again, I got only dead silence.
I enlisted my girlfriend's aid the next morning to try jump starting the truck with a booster pack. I am not sure if she goofed and put the cables on the terminals in reverse order or not (she swears she didn't) but the shower of sparks was both visible and audible in spite of my being in the cab with the hood up.
Thus began my adventure into automotive wiring. I dove in head first, absorbing information like a sponge, spending hours and hours reading forums and skulling out wiring diagrams. Here is what I can tell you, and it may help you solve your problem.
Old trucks of our era came with stock incandescent headlights. Halogen bulbs emerged somewhere around that time, and the logical thing to do is upgrade, right? Especially when there are drop in replacements readily available nowadays. I bet your truck, like mine, has had halogen replacements installed. The amperage required to light those brighter lights is WAY higher than the stock amperage normally sent to the headlights. Hang on to that tidbit.
I believe I saw in your sig that you come from a four seasons climate, as do I. A heater blower motor, or an AC system, for that matter, draws a hefty amount of current when operated. Hang on to that, too.
A stock radio doesn't draw much, but if you have an aftermarket stereo with multiple disc changer, power amp, or any other such bells and whistles, those things draw more than the allotted stock amount of juice when operated.
Cell phone charger plugged into the cigarette lighter? More current required.
GPS unit, CB radio, Sirius XM radio, anything like that? More current required.
Now add up the sum total of all those tidbits I told you to hang on to from above... for most folks, that adds up to a lot of tidbits.
Each of those has an amperage draw. Some are smaller, say 3 go 5 amps, and others are whopping big...blower motors for heat and/or AC can run a minimum of 15 amps, with 30 being pretty common.
Now... trucks like ours came equipped with a stock run-of-the-mill AC Delco alternator, which is not a bad alternator at all, but running at about 3,000 rps, those units crank out a whopping 30-40 amps of juice, which gets divided between charging the battery, powering accessories you have turned on at any given time, and PROVIDING THE ELECTRICITY TO OPERATE ALL YOUR VEHICLE'S SYSTEMS... starting with the current that goes to your spark plugs to make your engine run at all, to any non-mechanically driven (not driven by your crankshaft) components that take care of fuel delivery, power steering, and the like. Part of that available juice goes to things like the feedback wire between your amp/volt meter in your dash and one of the terminals on the back of your alternator, commonly called the "exciter" wire because it tells the alternator when it needs to turn on to generate electricity. It should be brown in color, by the way.
What this has to do with the price of tea in China... is that if your tidbit list adds up to, say, 43 amperes demanded of your truck's system, and your alternator is the vintage variety that puts out, to pick a number, 37 amps of current, than means that you are running at a defecit of 6 amperes of juice IF you are averaging 3,000 rpms. I doubt your wife or you are driving in that rpm range on dirt or country roads very often. That is more like highway speeds in my book. Now consider that at roughtly 1,000 rps or a bit higher, about idle speed, you alternator if very likely producing NO electricity at all, as it hasn't passed the threshold rpms that tell the exciter wire to kick the alternator in the backside and start making and sending that electricity to the battery. So your battery is gradually being depleted of its juice at every stop sign, stop light, construction zone, rubbernecker accident slowdown, or other reason you cut your rpms drastically for any length of time while still having all your tidbits up and running.
I know, I know, you may already know about this. But what many folks do NOT know, and I was one of them, is that simple little things cause bigger, more complex problems. To save boring you to tears, my overly analytical, overthinking mind went over every possible angle of how and why this could get out of control so fast, and I came up with the following:
1)Start at your battery. Have it load tested at a reputable auto parts store (usually for free). It can show 12+ volts of electricity all day long and not start your truck if it lacks the amps to turn it over...as in it cannot provide enough power at once, for long enough, to overcome the resistance of the engine's pistons compressing the fuel in the cylinders).
2) Next check your battery cables. NOT just the terminal (but yes, those, too). All surfaces should be clean, shiny, and bright where the "jaw" of the cable's terminal grabs and holds onto the post of the battery terminal itself. Notice that the + or positive terminal is NOT the same diameter thickness as the - or negative terminal of the battery. A prior owner of my truck must have been tight for cash and used a + terminal from a spare cable in place of a worn - cable terminal on my truck's battery, because my cable terminals were the same size... which meant my - or negative terminal cable was ALWAYS LOOSE on the battery's negative terminal, even when cranked down tightly. Road vibration loosens those up FAST if they are not the correct size! If all else fails, use a pair of micrometers to measure the exact battery post size, or use a piece of paper and pencil to do a "gravestone rubbing" of the top of the post, and take it with you if you need to replace a terminal. Why is this so important? On to the next item on the list...
3)Check the battery cables themselves. Use a pen knife or sharp pair of bandage scissors (don't admit to using your wife's, she will kill you for it) to very carefully make a straight cut through the colored rubber/plastic jacket of the cable, the direction of the cable (not in a circle around the cable), for both your positive and your negative battery cables that leave the battery and head towards the engine (the big, thick ones, and they should be about the thickness of at least your pinky finger). Start with a small cut, maybe a quarter inch or so, and carefully look between the jacket and copper stranded monster hunk of cable. If there is any powdery white, greenish white, or other dull colored "crud" on the wire, continue the cut a quarter inch or so at a time until you arrive at clean, bright copper wire again. Provided you haven't travelled half the cable doing this, you may cut off the corroded section, reattach the clean cable end to the clean terminal, and reattach the terminal to the battery post. As you may discover, the cables can LOOK perfectly clean and fine on the outside, and hide an ugly amount of corrosion on the inside of the cable jacket. I have seen them look fine and dandy on the outside, and when checked, be HOLLOW for the first quarter inch on the inside except for three or four strands of wire still attached! No kidding... this is very simple but can wreak havoc on your truck's performance. If you do not have a good ground for your electrical system, no matter HOW much juice your alternator supplies your battery, it will never GET THERE, and your battery will slowly deplete and your performance will suffer.
4)Next point... you should also check for corrosion in your other wires leaving your battery... a smaller, usually red jacketed wire that leaves your battery from the positive terminal, and runs down towards the engine block, leads to your starter solenoid, which is a switch that helps turn your starter on and off. It should be clean, bright and shiny on the contact surfaces at the battery, and quite tight, and usually has a rubber boot over it where it ends on the solenoid, and MUST be very tight there. Also check the similarly sized, usually black jacketed wire from your battery negative terminal that leaves and usually attaches to your frame by being bolted down next to your radiator up top. All surfaces clean and bright as always. The other important one, easier to check if your truck is up on a lift, is to find your strap grounds. These look like flat braided metal straps, about half an inch wide or so, and there should be two of them, one on each side of your engine block, that connect from the engine block to the firewall (the inside wall of the engine cavity that separates it from the cab of the truck).
Provided ALL of the above have a clean bill of health and your problem does not disappear, you may need to consider a couple options. One is to put your headlights (especially if modernized headlights such as halogen lights or other high output bulbs have been installed) onto a separate relay. This simply means separating the headlight wiring from the main harness so that its electrical supply is fed separately from the other items typically "bundled" in the same wiring group and routed to the cab. This basically puts less of a demand on the "general" electrical supply by not making the lights "share" the same "lane" to receive their supply. Likewise with more involved stereo systems or other high-demand add-on items. If you have a good amount of extras, you might even want to consider adding an extra battery on its own circuit and wiring your extras directly to that to ease the load on your system in general.
Last but not least, you might consider upgrading your alternator to a higher output one, making sure that you choose a model whose specifications are compatible with your specific engine and its demands. Mine cost me about $130 through Summit Racing, but it puts out 150 or more amps of power at cruising speeds, and even charges my battery while I am idling the engine at stoplights! I went a step further and installed an extra fuse box under my hood to handle my stereo system, trailer brakes and electrical package, off road lighting bars, pickup bed 12v DC beer cooler movie screen, etc.
All the old problems are gone, and to boot, my truck runs much stronger, smoother, and quieter than before... to the envy of more than one previous owner.
Little fixes, big results.
Best of luck, and let me know if this helped at all.
T
 

eric 87

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Kentucky
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Eric
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
I am probably late to the party, but I might have some helpful insight. This sounds VERY close to what happened to my 85 Silverado. In my case, it kept killing batteries. Not outright killing them... everything would seem fine for a while, then out of the blue, the battery would not have the gumption to turn over the engine. Mine is a pieced and patched together son-of-a-mechanic special that a girlfriend/ex/whatever picked up for $500 a decade before we met, and her prack ex husband allowed NO money to be invested in the truck (read as: no oil changes, tune ups, new hoses, NOTHING). As you can guess, she needed some serious TLC. So much so, that when I started working on her and the list of issues grew, were diagnosed, and addressed, she eventually became mine just on sheer time and parts costs invested (they eventually added up to way more than she had paid for the vehicle). But I digress. This truck went from rough to running like a top, I mean the 350 runs smoother than "modern" ones less than five years old. So it puzzled me as to why she was eating batteries. She had the same intermittent glitches and issues you describe, up to and including the voltage "sag" at random times, including when hitting the brake pedal. Then one fine night in Reno, NV, about an hour from my northern California mountain town home, leaving a 24-hour grocery store at around one in the morning, she failed to start. I mean nothing... no click, no clatter, no whine, grind, fuel pump sound, nothing. No lights, either, including dash lights. Nada. It was 18 degrees out in mid-October. Cold, but should not have killed what was a pretty strong battery in under an hour. A kind lady passing by noticed my hood up, stopped and offered a jump start, and she fired right up. After sitting in the parking lot a good 30 minutes running the engine a good bit above idle to give the battery a chance to build up some juice, I dropped her in gear and headed home. No sooner were we on the highway and up to speed, I knew I was in trouble. Something felt "off", and within moments the headlights seemed dimmer, and throttle response was "mushy". We had the heater running, and the headlights were on, but no other draws on the electrical system... which sagged noticeably when I applied the brakes.
That was a damn near terrifying drive home. There was no "moonlit night" driving to save me... which was painfully obvious as the lights grew more and more dim, the road harder to see... we slowed to roll through he inspection station at the state line, and accelerating to return to highway speed was when it happened. I thought my engine was going to explode. She began to lurch and buck, emitting a series of ear splitting pops and bangs that sounded like someone had lit off a metal lunch box full of M-80 firecrackers in an empty bus station dumpster, the headlights and running lights cut out entirely, then back on, then off, strobing on and off randomly as the engine misfired over and over and I lost all throttle response and the truck slowed to a crawl. I steered sharply towards the berm, intentionally planting my driver side wheels squarely on the "wake up you idiot" divets just inside the edge line, manually shifted down through the gears while feathering the gas pedal, cutting off the heater blower entirely as I did so. She sputtered for what seemed an eternity, then slowly smoothed out as the divets rattled my teeth nearly out of my skull, and gradually picked up speed until I could merge back into the highway and accelerate to normal speed. With thirty miles yet to get home, I could only operate the headlights on low beam or the problem began again.
It was a long, cold, white knuckled drive home, as the low beams dwindled and disappeared within five minutes of the inspection station incident. NO accessories could be used. I figured at this point that it could only be an alternator issue. This early guess was supported by the fact that when I arrived by some miracle in my driveway after having driven 47 miles at highway speed on a moonless night with no headlights, dash or running lights, when I shut off the engine and attempted to start it again, I got only dead silence.
I enlisted my girlfriend's aid the next morning to try jump starting the truck with a booster pack. I am not sure if she goofed and put the cables on the terminals in reverse order or not (she swears she didn't) but the shower of sparks was both visible and audible in spite of my being in the cab with the hood up.
Thus began my adventure into automotive wiring. I dove in head first, absorbing information like a sponge, spending hours and hours reading forums and skulling out wiring diagrams. Here is what I can tell you, and it may help you solve your problem.
Old trucks of our era came with stock incandescent headlights. Halogen bulbs emerged somewhere around that time, and the logical thing to do is upgrade, right? Especially when there are drop in replacements readily available nowadays. I bet your truck, like mine, has had halogen replacements installed. The amperage required to light those brighter lights is WAY higher than the stock amperage normally sent to the headlights. Hang on to that tidbit.
I believe I saw in your sig that you come from a four seasons climate, as do I. A heater blower motor, or an AC system, for that matter, draws a hefty amount of current when operated. Hang on to that, too.
A stock radio doesn't draw much, but if you have an aftermarket stereo with multiple disc changer, power amp, or any other such bells and whistles, those things draw more than the allotted stock amount of juice when operated.
Cell phone charger plugged into the cigarette lighter? More current required.
GPS unit, CB radio, Sirius XM radio, anything like that? More current required.
Now add up the sum total of all those tidbits I told you to hang on to from above... for most folks, that adds up to a lot of tidbits.
Each of those has an amperage draw. Some are smaller, say 3 go 5 amps, and others are whopping big...blower motors for heat and/or AC can run a minimum of 15 amps, with 30 being pretty common.
Now... trucks like ours came equipped with a stock run-of-the-mill AC Delco alternator, which is not a bad alternator at all, but running at about 3,000 rps, those units crank out a whopping 30-40 amps of juice, which gets divided between charging the battery, powering accessories you have turned on at any given time, and PROVIDING THE ELECTRICITY TO OPERATE ALL YOUR VEHICLE'S SYSTEMS... starting with the current that goes to your spark plugs to make your engine run at all, to any non-mechanically driven (not driven by your crankshaft) components that take care of fuel delivery, power steering, and the like. Part of that available juice goes to things like the feedback wire between your amp/volt meter in your dash and one of the terminals on the back of your alternator, commonly called the "exciter" wire because it tells the alternator when it needs to turn on to generate electricity. It should be brown in color, by the way.
What this has to do with the price of tea in China... is that if your tidbit list adds up to, say, 43 amperes demanded of your truck's system, and your alternator is the vintage variety that puts out, to pick a number, 37 amps of current, than means that you are running at a defecit of 6 amperes of juice IF you are averaging 3,000 rpms. I doubt your wife or you are driving in that rpm range on dirt or country roads very often. That is more like highway speeds in my book. Now consider that at roughtly 1,000 rps or a bit higher, about idle speed, you alternator if very likely producing NO electricity at all, as it hasn't passed the threshold rpms that tell the exciter wire to kick the alternator in the backside and start making and sending that electricity to the battery. So your battery is gradually being depleted of its juice at every stop sign, stop light, construction zone, rubbernecker accident slowdown, or other reason you cut your rpms drastically for any length of time while still having all your tidbits up and running.
I know, I know, you may already know about this. But what many folks do NOT know, and I was one of them, is that simple little things cause bigger, more complex problems. To save boring you to tears, my overly analytical, overthinking mind went over every possible angle of how and why this could get out of control so fast, and I came up with the following:
1)Start at your battery. Have it load tested at a reputable auto parts store (usually for free). It can show 12+ volts of electricity all day long and not start your truck if it lacks the amps to turn it over...as in it cannot provide enough power at once, for long enough, to overcome the resistance of the engine's pistons compressing the fuel in the cylinders).
2) Next check your battery cables. NOT just the terminal (but yes, those, too). All surfaces should be clean, shiny, and bright where the "jaw" of the cable's terminal grabs and holds onto the post of the battery terminal itself. Notice that the + or positive terminal is NOT the same diameter thickness as the - or negative terminal of the battery. A prior owner of my truck must have been tight for cash and used a + terminal from a spare cable in place of a worn - cable terminal on my truck's battery, because my cable terminals were the same size... which meant my - or negative terminal cable was ALWAYS LOOSE on the battery's negative terminal, even when cranked down tightly. Road vibration loosens those up FAST if they are not the correct size! If all else fails, use a pair of micrometers to measure the exact battery post size, or use a piece of paper and pencil to do a "gravestone rubbing" of the top of the post, and take it with you if you need to replace a terminal. Why is this so important? On to the next item on the list...
3)Check the battery cables themselves. Use a pen knife or sharp pair of bandage scissors (don't admit to using your wife's, she will kill you for it) to very carefully make a straight cut through the colored rubber/plastic jacket of the cable, the direction of the cable (not in a circle around the cable), for both your positive and your negative battery cables that leave the battery and head towards the engine (the big, thick ones, and they should be about the thickness of at least your pinky finger). Start with a small cut, maybe a quarter inch or so, and carefully look between the jacket and copper stranded monster hunk of cable. If there is any powdery white, greenish white, or other dull colored "crud" on the wire, continue the cut a quarter inch or so at a time until you arrive at clean, bright copper wire again. Provided you haven't travelled half the cable doing this, you may cut off the corroded section, reattach the clean cable end to the clean terminal, and reattach the terminal to the battery post. As you may discover, the cables can LOOK perfectly clean and fine on the outside, and hide an ugly amount of corrosion on the inside of the cable jacket. I have seen them look fine and dandy on the outside, and when checked, be HOLLOW for the first quarter inch on the inside except for three or four strands of wire still attached! No kidding... this is very simple but can wreak havoc on your truck's performance. If you do not have a good ground for your electrical system, no matter HOW much juice your alternator supplies your battery, it will never GET THERE, and your battery will slowly deplete and your performance will suffer.
4)Next point... you should also check for corrosion in your other wires leaving your battery... a smaller, usually red jacketed wire that leaves your battery from the positive terminal, and runs down towards the engine block, leads to your starter solenoid, which is a switch that helps turn your starter on and off. It should be clean, bright and shiny on the contact surfaces at the battery, and quite tight, and usually has a rubber boot over it where it ends on the solenoid, and MUST be very tight there. Also check the similarly sized, usually black jacketed wire from your battery negative terminal that leaves and usually attaches to your frame by being bolted down next to your radiator up top. All surfaces clean and bright as always. The other important one, easier to check if your truck is up on a lift, is to find your strap grounds. These look like flat braided metal straps, about half an inch wide or so, and there should be two of them, one on each side of your engine block, that connect from the engine block to the firewall (the inside wall of the engine cavity that separates it from the cab of the truck).
Provided ALL of the above have a clean bill of health and your problem does not disappear, you may need to consider a couple options. One is to put your headlights (especially if modernized headlights such as halogen lights or other high output bulbs have been installed) onto a separate relay. This simply means separating the headlight wiring from the main harness so that its electrical supply is fed separately from the other items typically "bundled" in the same wiring group and routed to the cab. This basically puts less of a demand on the "general" electrical supply by not making the lights "share" the same "lane" to receive their supply. Likewise with more involved stereo systems or other high-demand add-on items. If you have a good amount of extras, you might even want to consider adding an extra battery on its own circuit and wiring your extras directly to that to ease the load on your system in general.
Last but not least, you might consider upgrading your alternator to a higher output one, making sure that you choose a model whose specifications are compatible with your specific engine and its demands. Mine cost me about $130 through Summit Racing, but it puts out 150 or more amps of power at cruising speeds, and even charges my battery while I am idling the engine at stoplights! I went a step further and installed an extra fuse box under my hood to handle my stereo system, trailer brakes and electrical package, off road lighting bars, pickup bed 12v DC beer cooler movie screen, etc.
All the old problems are gone, and to boot, my truck runs much stronger, smoother, and quieter than before... to the envy of more than one previous owner.
Little fixes, big results.
Best of luck, and let me know if this helped at all.
T
I do appreciate all the info. The only add on I have in the truck is stereo by the previous owner. It has an amp behind the seat and two speakers. He took the sub out apparently because there is a big hole in the self made cabinet holding the other speakers. The amp I do not think is hooked up. as I have cranked it up on some of my old classic rock songs from back in the day and a beach boys tune or two when I get nostalgic.
But it isn't loud as I said because I don't think it is hooked up. No phone chargers or anything in the truck. The alternator I replaced yesterday as a last resort was only because I suspected the regulator built in. But no change.
My truck ALWAYS starts. Never has NOT started. But the idle is fine for a few and then while I stand next to the engine bay it slowly builds up RPMS. I shut it off and restart sometimes it takes it back to normal and other times not. If I drive it like that sometimes it corrects and sometimes not. I am the mechanic (maybe he did to be sure I DID) each replaced the IAC.
But then the other day since my missing problem had been fixed it quit on me as I was driving at a steady 40 mph. As if the key was turned to off. At first the radio played on but then it also went dark. I coasted to a driveway. Put in park cranked it and I had to pump the throttle body which I know not to do. But it wasn't starting otherwise so what the heck. It belched and fired up and chugged for a moment and smoothed out to normal idle. I noticed hitting the brakes (daylight driving) it sent my gauge down to 8. Let off and it slowly went up to about 11-12.
I had the battery load tested and I had the old alt tested and it was fine but thought the regulator might be going out slowly so I replaced it.
No change. I have checked my grounds as another had said as well.
SO far TPS, MAP, TEMP, Computer, Distributor, Ignition control module today even though new in the new distributor I replaced it. The O2 sensor. And now the alternator. OH and the TBI was rebuilt with the regulator getting a new diaphram and spring etc. The injectors were cleaned and spraying correctly.
SO I am not sure what the second relay is on my firewall next to the fuel relay. Looks identical to the fuel relay and it has a wire or two that goes down and back up to the fuel relay. My passenger side tank doesn't work.
I have a code 42 now on the SES light. Which is the Ignition control module and a Fuel Cutoff relay as an open circuit or ground issue that will throw that code. I checked the wiring and replaced the ignition module today. after clearing the codes it came back.
 

eric 87

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1987
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GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
Hopefully your starter wires look better than this. This is one of the causes of my son's truck having intermittent stalling and starting issues. The engineer who decided to put the main electrical connection on the starter is not my favorite person. For some reason a previous owner bypassed the blue wire and ran a new one, found that when I opened up the wiring loom to the starter and it had wires and colors not on the wiring diagrams. i am guessing PO bypassed the cut-off relay to the fuel tanks instead of finding and fixing the problem.

The truck actually ran with the fusible link toasted, just not as often as my son would like. lol
I am getting a code 42 now since I replaced the bulb for the SES lol. I replaced the ignition control module since it is part of the Code 42. The other cause that would pertain to my truck year is the fuel cutoff relay being open circuit or ground short I think it says.
I have two relays and I know one is the fuel relay. It has a wire that goes down and comes back up and connects to the other. In all the pictures online you see a bracket for two relays but only one showing. Well my truck has TWO. What it is I don't know but the tab/clip ear is broken and it dangles down below the fuel relay. But it is identical. I had it in place using a zip tie. I can't replace it since I don't know what it is. I figure I am virtually replacing every electrical part by the day. I checked the wires visually all over the engine cab. My trucks pearl white paint has blood all over the front of it now from my arms getting ripped on all edges while replacing the ignition module today. I also replaced the alternator with a larger one. I think it is 94. I thought maybe the regulator was going out on the old. So I need to check the fuel system wiring. I suppose I need to either lift the bed since the right tank kills the engine if you flip the switch. In the 10 months of ownership I have never been able to use the right tank. Which has been fine. Not sure if my wife and I can lift it and slide it back enough to access the tanks tops and the wiring. Other option is to drop them. Prefer NOT to do this. Not sure which is worse. Curious if the other relay on the firewall is fuel related and causing the code. However not knowing what it is? I have google relays on firewall for my model year etc and nothing.
I will go back and reread you suggestions and ideas again. Will have to drive my 69 firebird tomorrow to go check on my brother with health issues and take him some T-day dinner. Hated to do so because the weather will be crap but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Can't even sell the truck like it is lol. I would prefer to fix it as the engine remarkably feels strong and when it is idling smooth at times after my test drive today....it idled as smooth as any vehicle I have owned. A bit rich but the plugs look normal to lean if anything. They and the wires are also new lol. If I can fix this problem I may rewire the entire truck with a painless or autowire replacement. Then I know it will be good and I can button it up nice.
 

eric 87

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Eric
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1987
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GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
I'm just going to quote you and respond to one thing "And run as dependable as a new truck without all the electronic headaches." Some people will say that can't be done, cause it's an old truck and I want you to know that yes it can. Whatever path you end up going down, if done right, once you have the truck fixed up mechanically it will be at least close to as dependable as a new truck. Take me for example, my 84 is an unrestored rig with a 305 and 700R4. It doesn't look like a new truck, but it does look good, more importantly it is reliable. I run a small farm and that old truck and I will take 100 mile one way trips for feed, coming back loaded, sometimes with my 18' trailer. My truck has to be reliable, and if you hang in there and stick with it, your truck will be just as reliable. I'm lucky in that my truck has received a lifetime of good care as a driven vehicle, but I've also bought vehicles that had serious issues. Some so bad I didn't want to continue on, but eventually turned them into good rigs. I guess this my little pep talk. Stick with it and one way or another good things will come!
I'd be a fool to not want to get this one straightened out. The cost savings would be great. But like you we are rural near Ft Knox Ky. I drive 100 mile round trip 3 times a week checking on my brother. I really hope this truck can be my vehicle for that. While I drive my 69 firebird regularly I do not want to put that many miles on for those mundane trips since it is numbers matching engine. NOW not that I am worried about it from an investment angle just its age. I swapped the th350 trans for a 2004r so I can use on the interstate and reduce my RPMs by a bunch.
So now a new alternator and ignition control module going after the code 42. The other issue with the code is a possible short or open circuit on the fuel cutoff relay that I have to find and check it out. I checked the engine bay wiring as best I could visually. Will do what the diagnostic said and pull the plugs off the computer and check it pin by pen for voltage or ohms. I found not only some diagnostic diagrams on another truck forum/site but one nice person also put all their manuals online for MANY YEARS to include electrical and repair etc. I saved the bookmark and already downloaded a few. It will make some reading material for me no doubt. I feel confident this truck will have me proficient in 87 GMC Sierra Classic 305 TBI talk.
If anything else pops in your head feel free. And when I DO find this gremlin I will be sure to post the results so everyone can either chuckle or say OH YEAH forgot about that or.....
Thanks to you and everyone though. I do appreciate the efforts. Hard to help not seeing it in front of you.
 

eric 87

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1987
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GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
Hey is there a way to update all my posts from one spot so it posts on all???
I did the TBI to carb swap. Mine is a 305 with th400 transmission. Well well well. Let me say this as I want to be fair, transparent and honest as someone else may not be as fortunate in being able to spend the money as needed to get a ride going. I was there a few times earlier in life where you had to do repairs on weekend with NO money and have it running so you could get to work Monday morning EARLY. Stress.
I am still not 100% sure as to what my problem was and or still could be with this truck. So this isn't a complete update YET.
For those that say do not do the swap...for the most part this truck has run FAR stronger with the carb than it did with the TBI. Being honest is it because that system was never right? Dunno. But the entire engine other than Distributor intake and now carb is the same. Runs LOTS stronger.
I am still having a bit of issue. I have now paid two shops that are known to be good by reputation to adjust my NEW holley street warrior 600cfm carb. And neither has it dialed in. I think I am learning that people do things the way they have always done things or THEIR way of doing things and that isn't always the way HOLLEY or any manufacturer wants you to do it. Without getting into my issue currently I will say that I THINK it is just adjustments to be made.
Out of the box the Holley was good. BUT the fast idle was SUPER HIGH. Like nearly half throttle. With it cold I backed out the fast idle screw a bunch. Didn't help. THey say when adjusting the electric choke not to take the line on the housing outside the marks. My black housing line was 2 lines left of center. With the fast idle screw backed out a bunch and the choke move to the last notch to the right side my choke opened fast and my idle was better. But then once warm I had to keep giving gas to keep running because the idle was TOO LOW to run.
First shop guy actually made a house call since he lived within 10 minutes of my house and said doing it cold would be easier. He fiddled with the idle mixture. adjusted the accel. pump as it was too tight. And checked the floats good and the idle mixture good. So not much done. He adjusted slightly my fast idle screw but not much. Maybe a half turn. But it was still high now once again.
Took to another Chevy classic shop. It idles really low but it doesn't stall. It does bog a little or sputter on initial accel from stop. Going down road it surges with light fuel pressure on pedal to keep it steady speed. Like a pulsing engine. But man give it gas and she goes like she never did with the TBI. I did notice a bit of clatter like an old 70's ford did in LTD's. Like lifter clatter or an early car diesel engine. This is under light acceleration only.
Pulled in garage on maiden running around town. My garage now smells like it was running rich nearly making eyes tear and burn.
He said he adjusted everything a bit including idle mixture screws etc. Again for the most part it is running the best it has. BUT I think it is off just a tad. I think I may also do a compression and leakdown. This clatter could be carb adjustment lean or rich I have read. But I also note that when I kicked down the engine seemed to flutter as it tried to pick up speed. Hard to describe. Last night when I was putting the breather back on I started to make sure everything and linkage cleared. I gave it gas by hand on throttle. It coughed and backfired through carb and died. Fired right back up. He said he also adjusted timing.
I think I will need to do this all over again to double check things but will take notes on how many turns etc if I make it worse I can get it back to this spot.
Compression and leak down was done by first shop when I was messing with TBI side of things. Engine was supposed to be tight.

Summary....would I do it again. Sure. Maybe. Not regretting other than to say in the physical swapping of parts I was laying on engine from radiator back to firewall. I unplugged all sensors. Tied off to the side. I then loosened the distributor. I pulled the two plugs from the distributor. THe four pin was missing a pin. Not the ign module but the plug itself. Initially the TBI work had made the truck better. But then it died. Then it idled REAL HIGH as in half throttle. Then shut off and restart it idled so low it died at stop signs and traffic lights. Was this one pin missing on Ign module the issue? Maybe and I will never know. I had back pinned it when I had a code 42 and the wiring to the ECM was good. Never looked into the holes of the plug. One pin was now gone. Did it come out when shop 1 changed distributor? So he did the work and it seemed better for a few minutes but then began the other issue. In hindsight I like to make sure I have checked everything before big decisions. I missed the plug. Was it the issue again I do not know.
I do know the carb is overall making it run strong. With a little adjustment I think it will be good. I let others do the carb adjust because it isn't my forte and because they have tons of experience. And I needed a break from the truck or divorce was on our radar....me and the truck.
Now....wife is at a point she has no confidence in the truck. I may very well be divorcing the truck soon with a for sale sign in its window. I will get it right before hand. Will keep it updated what it ends up being. Some of you may know what I am describing and what it would be. If not carb then ? Will do that compression and leak down test though. I will say all the wiring is basically cut out of truck as far as TBI stuff. I have the plugs with about 4 inch of wire on each. I can still do a long block swap in it....but it is wearing me out. And she is tired of me talking about the thing. Step back time.

Funny thing is coming out of store today I still liked the look of the truck and how it drives. BUT MAN O MAN
 

Jwernatl

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John
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V10
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5.7ltr
Ive got an 87 - unbelievable stock condition - from the AIR pump to original everything.

I've had major crazy issues. from idle high - to staying in open loop - engine just die for no reason - the freaking heater core blow - hard start - back firing -- jeeze and much more. -

But now - once it's warm, she idles at 700rpm in neutral, as well as in any gear and with great power. (stock power, but it's good)


Reading the below - will bring it all into focus...

http://www.mediafire.com/file/i59ns...and_Emissions_Including_Driveability.pdf/file



If you go to the reference library - if you haven't already - there is great factory manuals - nothing you cant repair - with even minimal knowledge.
 

Jwernatl

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V10
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5.7ltr
oh and - I was having trouble with my TBI - I ended up swapping to a Holley Replacement 670 cfm TBI 1987-89 GM 5.7L V8 truck Part Number: 510-502-6

The reason I stayed with the TBI vs going to a carb is some history with a different 87 I had.

The ECM needs the IAC and TPS and ... to run everything else. And plus the HOLLY TBI is very user friendly. after it's set up correctly and other sensors are running as they were intended, it's great. -Purrs with great response.

The drivability manual above gives step by step on install - and it worked great.


Swapping to a good ole 4 barrel Holley or Edelbrock sounds fun to me I like a good ole 4500 Dominator -- But, changing that would make me change so much other stuff...

all of this because of an87 squarebody I had back in 2005 - about the same truck with exception of the tbi -before I purchased the truck, someone had dropped a quardrajet on it -- It was ok - but, never right - after a while, I pulled that for a HOLLEY carb - I forget which. And, I'm pretty good with carbs. Lots of history there. I eventually sold the truck to a friend that out a TBI back on it - And after adding the sensors - that truck is still running sme tbi today - as I see him and the trusk at local shows - What I learned, after swapping a carb for the tbi, it's hard to get the ECM to play well -- UNLESS you pull it all -

And, all this is simply an opinion. There's lots on here that don't feel the same. Lots that do - like i said, just an opinion.

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TPISly-C10

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Sly
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
C-10 shortbox
Engine Size
LQ4 6.0L
Hey Ladies and Gents,
Had an 85 GMC Sierra Shortbed back in 2005 and it was rusted through in some of the normal places. Six cylinder 3 on the tree truck. Still there was something about it I liked beside it being black with red interior. It was a TRUCK. Having said that I am now the owner of an 87 GMC truck that is also a shortbed. Sharp looking and gets my wife a lot of men talking to her about it when she drives it.
BUT IT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY TO THE POINT I EITHER Crate engine swap or sell it and regret it. I HOPE THIS FORUM SAVES IT FROM SELL. The decision will be made in the next week.
I am turning 60 in a few weeks and I think I have less patience now. I wanna keep it but I have to have it be dependable!
I know just enough to get me in trouble and know to hire out work when I don't know. But there are some things I can help with and I have opinions but really try not to be an idiot to others either because it is bad enough when you need help for someone to give "nice" answers!
I understand your situation because I too have just turned 60 and I built a square to my liking and it will only be for sale once it is in my grave lolll so take advantage of the present moment and do what you want! :D
 

eric 87

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Eric
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1987
Truck Model
GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
I understand your situation because I too have just turned 60 and I built a square to my liking and it will only be for sale once it is in my grave lolll so take advantage of the present moment and do what you want! :D
Yep Not sure exactly where I am heading with the truck. Still like the body style. And if I were to invest in a crate engine for it I think I can still be under 20k or there abouts. And it would be a new truck at that point. However I am wondering how many older cars/trucks I can have in the garage at one time. Currently there is NO new vintage cars in the garage. Wife is starting to feel a bit like she has no dependable car or truck because there is always work being done. Both are driving running but do need some tweaks. I have no issue driving them where ever we need to go. But when she goes to the garage she doesn't like to see hoods raised on both the truck and my 69 firebird. THOSE are our drivers. Nothing new since they were all sold.
Feel like something needs to go and buy her something new so she can have confidence to go anywhere she wants. She doesn't want to drive my 69 because she is afraid someone will hit it or steal it when in a store or something. The truck she likes and it gets as much conversation. Actually I should sell it because she comes home with mens phone numbers that are wanting to buy it!!!
I think the fate of the stable is being decided the next few weeks. I do agree with building as you like though. Not going to live for someone elses likes. I will say from what I am seeing the bubble is busting a bit on these trucks. I am seeing many of them in relatively good shape for way under 20k. Many been listed of late on Facebook in the classic groups.
 

eric 87

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Location
Kentucky
First Name
Eric
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
GMC Sierra Shortbed
Engine Size
305 tbi
oh and - I was having trouble with my TBI - I ended up swapping to a Holley Replacement 670 cfm TBI 1987-89 GM 5.7L V8 truck Part Number: 510-502-6

The reason I stayed with the TBI vs going to a carb is some history with a different 87 I had.


The ECM needs the IAC and TPS and ... to run everything else. And plus the HOLLY TBI is very user friendly. after it's set up correctly and other sensors are running as they were intended, it's great. -Purrs with great response.

The drivability manual above gives step by step on install - and it worked great.


Swapping to a good ole 4 barrel Holley or Edelbrock sounds fun to me I like a good ole 4500 Dominator -- But, changing that would make me change so much other stuff...

all of this because of an87 squarebody I had back in 2005 - about the same truck with exception of the tbi -before I purchased the truck, someone had dropped a quardrajet on it -- It was ok - but, never right - after a while, I pulled that for a HOLLEY carb - I forget which. And, I'm pretty good with carbs. Lots of history there. I eventually sold the truck to a friend that out a TBI back on it - And after adding the sensors - that truck is still running sme tbi today - as I see him and the trusk at local shows - What I learned, after swapping a carb for the tbi, it's hard to get the ECM to play well -- UNLESS you pull it all -

And, all this is simply an opinion. There's lots on here that don't feel the same. Lots that do - like i said, just an opinion.

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Just as an aside...no one could ever tell me what the second relay was / is on the firewall next to the fuel relay. Never found it on any wiring diagram on 87. Turns out it is the TH400 kickdown relay. Not sure why they sent it through the computer and a relay but they did.
The truck overall is running pretty good. There is this surging issue and the bit of hesitation on light accel from stop. It died on me but fired right back up in neutral. Looking at your engine compartment looks like mine or did. I don't have any of the smog stuff and mine did come with a TH400 trans per RPO. Most got the 700r4 I hear. Not sure why if maybe just from plant to plant. Every shop I talk about wants to put in on a rack because they don't believe its a 400. Has the texas pan and the side modulator and kickdown solenoid...swims like a duck...
I think I am in that in between stage with my truck, Do I keep and get rid of the 305 all together and get a nice GM performance 350 290hp fully dressed engine. Rewire the entire truck so its nice and taken care of in that regard. Maybe new tanks and sending units with 2 outlets. I don't have the intank pumps working. One quit anyways so I have a low pressure holley electric. My 305 didn't have the block provision for mechanical pump.
The other idea is...Sell now and cut bait. Maybe find one completely finished. But then I am paying more that what I would have in mine. But this down time makes me drive my 69 firebird more than I like. Those are my two vehicles.
 

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