4L65E Mega Monster Transmission - Destruction and Shift Kit check balls

[HotRodPC]

I can't wait until Nick see this! And Hotrod!

Yes, Yes, Yes, I'm curious to get @NickTransmissions on this. I already know he's far surpassed my experiences, especially on the 700r4/4L60-65E. He's a trans guy, so I'm sure he likes carnage pics too. @Matt69olds knows some transmission stuff too. With Nick added, I think we have the Transmission issues here pretty much sewed up. I've also got a plan to work on Nick to post up some 4L80-E and 6L80-E stuff here for those who want to do conversions, or those who have done LS Swaps.

I just ask that all of you who are interested in this transmission stuff, even if just to watch and realize it's over your head or not your cup of tea, at least watch his You Tube videos. Don't want to watch? Then just start a playlist and let it play before you go to bed some night. It's add to his views, ads, algorithm and promotes his YT channel so it can reach more people, not to mention, he can make a little side lunch money off the channel or maybe even get some sponsors or affiliates at some time. Him getting sponstors or affiliates, could even mean discount codes from his channel of us to use when buying parts. So do it. Go support his YT channel. Even throw a subscribe and ring the bell. It doesn't cost you a dime to do it but again, helps his channel analytics and algorithm.

 

[HotRodPC]

ha, JUST WOW!!!! Not really. Dont surprise me anymore. Monster has the worst rap. Anyone remember MAD DOG transmissions? They were
as bad if not worse than monster. Thats crazy you had to go through this with them.. Hope your next move is better

YES, Mad Dog is a break away from Monster when Monster started getting the bad rep, he spun off thinking he'd gain their market share of business, but NO, that dude works or worked for Monster, he's part of the problem.

 

[NickTransmissions]

Now I'll finally get to my question, the shift kit . Got all of my hard parts in last week, along with a new set of plastic (krylon?) checkballs. Put it all back together over the weekend, no issues, everything went smoothly. When I initially removed the valve body (very carefully), I took pics of the check ball locations - expecting 7, there were only 6 plastic balls on the valve body side. I was also expecting an 8th ball located under the plate on the case side, which didn't exist. There was one "captured" steel ball on the case side (sorry no photo), but that was it. My new checkballs measured .250", whereas the ones in my trans (from the shift kit I assume) were slightly larger - sorry, I don't remember the size, I believe they were .265". I put everything back together with the .250" checkballs in the stock locations. I am unable to locate instructions online for installing the shift kit that came in my transmission from Monster. Should I put the larger checkballs back the way I found them initially and move on, or am I ok with the stock configuration? Trans is back in the truck at this point - haven't gotten to installing the transfer case etc. quite yet.

Monster Transmission, LOL!!!
All the monster transmissions I have torn down (mostly 4L60Es and a few 4L80Es) all looked basically stock inside, including stock frictions, basic shift kits or mods and nothing overly innovative; same is true for their OTC 'Monster in the Box' kits...You can buy the same kit for about 1/2 to 1/3 the price from Transstar, which is where they get it from.

It's very possible they installed less than serviceable parts which would have contributed to the failure but whenever transmissions come in like this, regardless of model or transmission type, the common denominator is the almost always the same: lack of lubrication. No or a severe shortage of gear train lube will absolutely devastate parts which is exactly what happened here. So I wouldn't have reused anything aft of the input drum (except maybe the low reverse piston and return spring); would have put all good-used replacement gear parts and output shaft and Sonnax Smart Shell in. When such a failure happens, everything is trashed, sent to the scrap yard... @Matt69olds alluded to one underlying cause related to the driver; another common issue is lube restrictions in the system from clutch or other debris the transmission's previous life though they usually show up a lot sooner than 20k into it's new life...Could have also been caused by a combo of things, like sun shell failing, planetary also failing with lube circuits getting plugged up with debris, causing a domino-effect that proceeded to quickly take out the rest of the gears and such.

I'll be posting a carnage-related 4L60E video in a few days onto my channel though admittedly, the destruction that will be shown in my video isn't nearly as bad as yours, was just a bit 'odd' to me which is why I decided to start filming once I got into the case.

Shift kit: That is the Superior Tech basic shift kit, which is not what I would have installed for a 500HP-capable build; the Transgo HD2 is a much better solution if the goal is HP / HD at those power levels. Pair that with the Sonnax Smart shell, O-ringed boost valve and sleeve kit, Drum Reinforcement kit, TCC lock up valve, AFL and TCC valves in the vb, with the 5-pinion planets you'd have a very capable trans.

You can also check out my youtube channel for additional guidance - here's my 4L60E playlist - should cover all the bases though looks like you're largely done with the rebuild, still good for reference if you have to take it back out again.

Did you take a picture of the sun shell? If so, please post it here..I'm curious to see what sort of shell they used in this '500 HP build'...If the sun shell was the original failure point, you typically have just the broken shell but the rest of the gear train is usually unscathed. This carnage looks like a lubrication restriction was present and appears to be something fairly sudden...I'd flush all the lines, coolers etc to make sure all contaminants have been removed from the system, if you haven't already done so.

Sorry that happened, man. Sucks.

 

[HotRodPC]

Monster Transmission, LOL!!!
All the monster transmissions I have torn down (mostly 4L60Es and a few 4L80Es) all looked basically stock inside, including stock frictions, basic shift kits or mods and nothing overly innovative; same is true for their OTC 'Monster in the Box' kits...You can buy the same kit for about 1/2 to 1/3 the price from Transstar, which is where they get it from.

It's very possible they installed less than serviceable parts which would have contributed to the failure but whenever transmissions come in like this, regardless of model or transmission type, the common denominator is the almost always the same: lack of lubrication. No or a severe shortage of gear train lube will absolutely devastate parts which is exactly what happened here. So I wouldn't have reused anything aft of the input drum (except maybe the low reverse piston and return spring); would have put all good-used replacement gear parts and output shaft and Sonnax Smart Shell in. When such a failure happens, everything is trashed, sent to the scrap yard... @Matt69olds alluded to one underlying cause related to the driver; another common issue is lube restrictions in the system from clutch or other debris the transmission's previous life though they usually show up a lot sooner than 20k into it's new life...Could have also been caused by a combo of things, like sun shell failing, planetary also failing with lube circuits getting plugged up with debris, causing a domino-effect that proceeded to quickly take out the rest of the gears and such.

I'll be posting a carnage-related 4L60E video in a few days onto my channel though admittedly, the destruction that will be shown in my video isn't nearly as bad as yours, was just a bit 'odd' to me which is why I decided to start filming once I got into the case.

Shift kit: That is the Superior Tech basic shift kit, which is not what I would have installed for a 500HP-capable build; the Transgo HD2 is a much better solution if the goal is HP / HD at those power levels. Pair that with the Sonnax Smart shell, O-ringed boost valve and sleeve kit, Drum Reinforcement kit, TCC lock up valve, AFL and TCC valves in the vb, with the 5-pinion planets you'd have a very capable trans.

You can also check out my youtube channel for additional guidance - here's my 4L60E playlist - should cover all the bases though looks like you're largely done with the rebuild, still good for reference if you have to take it back out again.

Did you take a picture of the sun shell? If so, please post it here..I'm curious to see what sort of shell they used in this '500 HP build'...If the sun shell was the original failure point, you typically have just the broken shell but the rest of the gear train is usually unscathed. This carnage looks like a lubrication restriction was present and appears to be something fairly sudden...I'd flush all the lines, coolers etc to make sure all contaminants have been removed from the system, if you haven't already done so.

Sorry that happened, man. Sucks.

yeah, that's what I asked for. I want to see that Sun Shell to see if the problem started right there. I see the impression on his pic #1924 of 1936. Those parts were beating on each other without doubt. Probably everytime he throttled up, it started hammering. I'm not 100% sure this was a lubrication problem this time. I mean it sure could be, But it's obvious to me there's a thrust problem. I'm thinking someone probably didn't test the end play at the tailshaft, and maybe torrington bearing or thrust washer was forgotten about, or some worn parts were used allowing excessive end play in the rear of the case,, ie the planetaries. And it could have also started at the Sun Shell also. You'd think Monster would have been smart enough to build it with the Smart Shell in the first place. Nope, gotta save that almighty dollar and cheat the customer.

 

[NickTransmissions]

yeah, that's what I asked for. I want to see that Sun Shell to see if the problem started right there. I see the impression on his pic #1924 of 1936. Those parts were beating on each other without doubt. Probably everytime he throttled up, it started hammering. I'm not 100% sure this was a lubrication problem this time. I mean it sure could be, But it's obvious to me there's a thrust problem. I'm thinking someone probably didn't test the end play at the tailshaft, and maybe torrington bearing or thrust washer was forgotten about, or some worn parts were used allowing excessive end play in the rear of the case,, ie the planetaries. And it could have also started at the Sun Shell also. You'd think Monster would have been smart enough to build it with the Smart Shell in the first place. Nope, gotta save that almighty dollar and cheat the customer.

Technically, you dont adjust rear end play in the 700R4s or 4L60Es as everything is free to thrust against the pump. But excessive front end play can also indirectly cause this sort of failure...Excessive play results in the forward drum thrust bearing being hammered by the stator as the parts move violently from front to rear...At around .050" end play is when this starts happening. Anyways, after so many drive cycles of this, the bearing collapses, falls apart and parts go from travelling .050 or so to .250 or more which will cause the front sun gear to potentially come out of mesh with the front planet or desplined from the forward sprag in the case of the older sun gears. Plus needle bearings act like shrapnel, tearing through everything at thousands of rpm..

Excessive space/travel between the front planet and snap ring can also result in excessive thrust against the output shaft-front planet snap ring breaking it. That leads to massive gear train failure as well...If such travel is observed, the fix is Sonnax shim(s) under the front planet-hub thrust bearing...

Two other scenarios to ponder...Would love to have had this one on the bench for tear down with the camera rolling...

 

[nbkk43f]

Hey, just 1 more post. Thanks so much for posting these pics. Sorry it had to happen to you, but I just love love love carnage pics. They tend to make my sticker peck out. Makes me wanna go wreck ole' girls uterus and cause some more carnage. Know whutta mean Dawg?!?!?

I have detailed pics of the sunshell. I was a little disturbed by the contamination in the weld to be honest, but maybe that’s normal for them? Also you can see the teeth in these.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[nbkk43f]

I was first thinking it likely started from a failed Sunshell and went from there. Looking again, that's not it. But I do see thrust issues in the planets. I see an imprint of one of the planets where it was being thrusted against the inner race to the center support. It's as if a torrington bearing/thrust washer was left out allowing to much clearance and that planet just beat the hell out of the inner race causing worse issues behind the planets being beat on also. I have an exploit here and maybe you can make out what I mean. I'm guessing part #250 was either left out, or became destroyed. That allowed the front of #584 to beat on the back of #664. You can even see the planet spindle locks impression beat into the back of #664 in your pic, so I think that's where you problem started.

You must be registered for see images attach

If 250 is the contained roller bearing of the rear planetary, it was actually there, from what I could tell, chewed all to hell, but the outer ring portion remained. Pic below, I have it turned upright (sorta).

You must be registered for see images attach

The bat wings were gone from all 5 gears in the planetary, only remnants in the pan etc.

 

[NickTransmissions]

I have detailed pics of the sunshell. I was a little disturbed by the contamination in the weld to be honest, but maybe that’s normal for them? Also you can see the teeth in these.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

POS shell! But it didnt fail...Have to look elsewhere...Rear gear train failure mimicks/replicates the symptoms of sun shell failure, the loss of rev, 2nd and 4th...

Man, what a mess.

 

[nbkk43f]

I was first thinking it likely started from a failed Sunshell and went from there. Looking again, that's not it. But I do see thrust issues in the planets. I see an imprint of one of the planets where it was being thrusted against the inner race to the center support. It's as if a torrington bearing/thrust washer was left out allowing to much clearance and that planet just beat the hell out of the inner race causing worse issues behind the planets being beat on also. I have an exploit here and maybe you can make out what I mean. I'm guessing part #250 was either left out, or became destroyed. That allowed the front of #584 to beat on the back of #664. You can even see the planet spindle locks impression beat into the back of #664 in your pic, so I think that's where you problem started.

You must be registered for see images attach

Note, “washer” style bearings 251 and 238 were also installed and intact.

 

[89Suburban]

Way over my head but I love to watch and try to learn.

 

[HotRodPC]

Technically, you dont adjust rear end play in the 700R4s or 4L60Es as everything is free to thrust against the pump. But excessive front end play can also indirectly cause this sort of failure...Excessive play results in the forward drum thrust bearing being hammered by the stator as the parts move violently from front to rear...At around .050" end play is when this starts happening. Anyways, after so many drive cycles of this, the bearing collapses, falls apart and parts go from travelling .050 or so to .250 or more which will cause the front sun gear to potentially come out of mesh with the front planet or desplined from the forward sprag in the case of the older sun gears. Plus needle bearings act like shrapnel, tearing through everything at thousands of rpm..

Excessive space/travel between the front planet and snap ring can also result in excessive thrust against the output shaft-front planet snap ring breaking it. That leads to massive gear train failure as well...If such travel is observed, the fix is Sonnax shim(s) under the front planet-hub thrust bearing...

Two other scenarios to ponder...Would love to have had this one on the bench for tear down with the camera rolling...

See, this is the part where I don't consider myself a trans guy. I'm sure I've always played with the rear end play on 700r4's also. If it was like a Th350, then I was happy with it. But yeah I get what you're saying. There's no selective thrust washer in the back that I recall. But you explained the thrust well and yep, that's what I'm getting at. You see the impression of the planet pinion spindles impressioned on the center support innner race. That in itself tells me there was a major thrust or end play issue. Not sure what chain of events happened first but that part is obvious that it did happen. And that is NO Smart Shell at all, even though it doesn't look like it failed. Even the teeth look good. Is it not true, the Smart Shell spreads or redirects the thrust to prevent such type damage??? The last 700r4's I did, I just included the smart shell. I got sick of seeing all these hardened shells on ebay and other places and figured they're from China so to be sure I knew I'm getting 100% quality sunshell, I just got the Smart Shell from Sonnax and knew I had a good one without worry or wondering.

 

[HotRodPC]

Dammit bro. The Smart Shell is now $112 or so. Seems it used to be about $79 last time I got one. But with all those China Hardened Shells claiming to be The Beast Shell when they in fact WERE NOT, that's what scared me that I'd end up with ChYNA $hit and why I just went with the Smart Shell. I notice Monster sells their own, The Monster Beast Sun Shell now and I'm sure it's a ChYNA hardned sunshell instead of an authentic Beast Sunshell, which I'm fine using The Beast so long as I know it's authentic, but seems they all make the claim, The Beast when they are not. Gotta be careful these days or you end with junk.

Kinda like the 5 pinion planets. If you don't get the OEM planets and you get aftermarket ChYNA 5 pinion planets, just screwed up because the OEM 4 pinion planets are even stronger than the ChYNA 5 pinion planets. It's been a long minute since I needed any 5 pinion planets, so there might be some good aftermarket 5 pinion planets now, but I'm not yet aware of them. Personally, the planets wasn't normally a common failure in the 700r4s so unless it was a hipo build, I didn't see the point in wasting money on the 5 pinion planets being that the 4 pinion, if spec'd out correctly and visually looked good, then I trusted. them. The hanful of 700r4's I did, I never had one come back, and most of those were retrofits where peeps upgraded from a Th350, or powertrain swap in a Jaguar to a Chevy 350/700r4 and I started with 88 and up cores. I wouldn't build 82-86 for retrofits. I wanted the best opportunity for success as possible so they had to bring me the right core or I wouldn't build it.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[HotRodPC]

If 250 is the contained roller bearing of the rear planetary, it was actually there, from what I could tell, chewed all to hell, but the outer ring portion remained. Pic below, I have it turned upright (sorta).

You must be registered for see images attach

The bat wings were gone from all 5 gears in the planetary, only remnants in the pan etc.

So that face right there is what was impressioned on the backside, meaning facing the back of the case, on the backside of the inner race of the center support. The spindles, batwings and all are gone so I guess rather than being a thrust issue that caused all this catastrophic failure and chain reaction to so much destruction very well could have all started from nothing more than a failed planet pinion coming apart, and then another and another. I like this part. What I refer to as the autopsy. Nick would likely know better than I where it started and what caused it.

I once did a Th400 build that burnt to a crisp and had mega carnage like this. It was caused by a failed intermediate roller clutch. That thing was bad. Some of the clutches and steel were welded together it got so hot, and some of the clutches were worn down to nothing but a thin ring of flimsy metal that was yellow, blue and black in color. That's HOT !!!

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[nbkk43f]

So that face right there is what was impressioned on the backside, meaning facing the back of the case, on the backside of the inner race of the center support. The spindles, batwings and all are gone so I guess rather than being a thrust issue that caused all this catastrophic failure and chain reaction to so much destruction very well could have all started from nothing more than a failed planet pinion coming apart, and then another and another. I like this part. What I refer to as the autopsy. Nick would likely know better than I where it started and what caused it.

I once did a Th400 build that burnt to a crisp and had mega carnage like this. It was caused by a failed intermediate roller clutch. That thing was bad. Some of the clutches and steel were welded together it got so hot, and some of the clutches were worn down to nothing but a thin ring of flimsy metal that was yellow, blue and black in color. That's HOT !!!

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

WOW - those clutches/steels are toast!

 

[nbkk43f]

Awesome information and great feedback everyone - thank you very much!

Any thoughts on the check ball configuration? Should I use the larger check balls along with the configuration I found them from the "supposed" shift kit? Or should I be ok with the stock configuration I put them back as?

Again - thanks in advance for any additional advice!