Big block running hot. Can’t figure out the issue

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

legopnuematic

Licensed Junk Dealer
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Posts
2,624
Reaction score
6,938
Location
MO
First Name
Spencer
Truck Year
1971, 1̶9̶7̶4, 1976, 1979,1̶9̶8̶5, 2002
Truck Model
Dart Swinger, Sierra 10, C10 Cheyenne, C10 Big Ten, Silverado 10, Ram 2500
Engine Size
225/6, 350 c.i., 350 c.i., 5.9l Cummins
Adding to the discussion maybe it will help although I’m not well read on reg vs reverse rotation, but I have a Gen VI 454 bone stock in the 86. But it has old fashioned v belt system. Presuming the water pump was swapped for a v belt pump when the engine went in.
So do they cool the same reg or reverse rotation? I’d think so. IE it doesn’t matter which way you push the coolant through the engine.
But reverse cools the heads quicker (aka the 90s lt1 engines, early aluminum head 350s).
Not sure if this helps w your issue or just rambling.
The reverse rotation/standard rotation pump thing is just the impeller mirrored as the serpentine setup spins the pump the opposite direction that a v belt setup (or flat belt setup that uses the grooved side of the belt) does.

The flow path to and from the radiator remains the same for either pump setup.

Photo is of two ford pumps (their open design makes it a good visual) one std and one rev rotation:
You must be registered for see images attach
 
Last edited:

nvrenuf

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Posts
1,981
Reaction score
2,523
Location
Mobile, Al.
First Name
John
Truck Year
1991
Truck Model
K5
Engine Size
454
I'm glad the radiator turned out to be a big one, that should cool fine.

For the record, the 049 and 781 heads are basically the same casting so (if they are good) swapping between the 2 castings wouldn't make any difference.
 

Slooptin

Full Access Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2017
Posts
160
Reaction score
107
Location
Denver
First Name
Vance
Truck Year
1985
Truck Model
k30
Engine Size
454
I'm glad the radiator turned out to be a big one, that should cool fine.

For the record, the 049 and 781 heads are basically the same casting so (if they are good) swapping between the 2 castings wouldn't make any difference.
Sorry, meant 045 heads. I have another set of 049 cores sitting in my garage waiting to get some love.
 

Ajax19

Full Access Member
Joined
May 11, 2022
Posts
291
Reaction score
1,099
Location
Socal
First Name
Ajax
Truck Year
1983
Truck Model
K3500
Engine Size
454
I dont think it was boiling over. sensor was in the head prior to me refreshing the motor, but i switched from 049 casting heads to 781 heads. I figured the heads would be hotter, but it sat at right under 210 before this with the sensor there.

And, it's still standard bore. only thing that changed internally were new pistons, rings, and rod bearings. I used cast iron rings so I assumed those would get hot while the rings were getting seated but its been probably 100+ miles now so i assumed the rings should be seated by now. Fan clutch is a new HD clutch and it definitely moves air
Fershure man the new rad will probably help out heres the cheap equis gauge on mine reads 230 normally but will go up to 245° when I'm doing a long up hill (there's a 50mile uphill grade where I live have to go up when I go visit my mom in the boonies) hopefully you get it where you like but like I said engine is probably ok as long as your not boiling over
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20241126_113015909_HDR.jpg
    IMG_20241126_113015909_HDR.jpg
    103.3 KB · Views: 12
  • IMG_20241126_113117909_HDR.jpg
    IMG_20241126_113117909_HDR.jpg
    172.6 KB · Views: 12

Bextreme04

Full Access Member
Joined
May 13, 2019
Posts
4,464
Reaction score
5,631
Location
Oregon
First Name
Eric
Truck Year
1980
Truck Model
K25
Engine Size
350-4bbl
Adding to the discussion maybe it will help although I’m not well read on reg vs reverse rotation, but I have a Gen VI 454 bone stock in the 86. But it has old fashioned v belt system. Presuming the water pump was swapped for a v belt pump when the engine went in.
So do they cool the same reg or reverse rotation? I’d think so. IE it doesn’t matter which way you push the coolant through the engine.
But reverse cools the heads quicker (aka the 90s lt1 engines, early aluminum head 350s).
Not sure if this helps w your issue or just rambling.
There are two different things happening here.

First, the regular rotation and reverse rotation water pump does not change the coolant path. It only changes the way the pump moves the coolant through the same path because the pump rotates the opposite direction on the serpentine belt systems.

Second, the Mark IV coolant path is different than Gen V and Gen VI big blocks. The change was made in the block castings and head gasket though, so it has nothing to do with the water pump.

Here is one discussion I found on it:
"Coolant Routing Mk IV/Gen 5/Gen 6
There are two different ways that coolant can be routed through the engine: series flow and parallel flow. Both ways work just fine. There may be a slight preference for parallel flow, but it is not a big deal. Series flow has the water exiting the water pump, flowing through the block to the rear, it then transfers through the head gasket and into the cylinder head through two large passages on each cylinder bank at the rear of the block. The coolant then travels from the rear of the head, forward to the front of the head, into the intake manifold water passage and out past the thermostat and thermostat housing. The water cools the block first, then it cools the head. The coldest water (coming out of the water pump) is directly below the hottest water (having already picked up the heat of the block and the head) as the hot water transfers into the intake manifold. By contrast, parallel flow has the water exiting from the water pump into the block, where a portion "geysers" up into the head between the first and second cylinder, another portion "geysers" up to the head between the second and third cylinders, another portion geysers up to the head between the third and fourth cylinder, and the remainder transfers to the head at the rear of the block. The coolant temperature inside the engine is more even that way. The differences in coolant routing is having (or not having) the three additional coolant transfer holes in each block deck, and three matching holes in the head gasket. The heads have passages for either system, and are not different based on coolant flow.

Be aware that gaskets that DO have the three extra holes between the cylinders often have restricted coolant flow at the rear--instead of having two large coolant transfer holes at the rear, there is only one, and it's the smaller of the two holes that remains. This is important because if you use a parallel flow head gasket on a series flow block, you can have massive overheating and there's NOTHING that will cure the problem except to replace the head gaskets with ones that don't restrict flow at the rear of the block, or to drill the block decks to allow the coolant to flow into the head between the cylinders. Here's why they can overheat: A series-flow block doesn't have the openings between the cylinders, no coolant can flow up to the head there. The gasket may only have the single, smaller opening at the rear, so the amount of water that gets through that opening is greatly reduced from what the block designers intended. The result is that the coolant flow through the engine is only a fraction of what is needed.

Most, but NOT all Mk IV engines are Series Flow. ALL Gen 5 and Gen 6 engines are Parallel Flow. A series flow block can be converted to parallel flow by drilling 3 holes in each deck surface, and then use parallel flow head gaskets. You can use the parallel flow gaskets as templates for locating the additional holes. It's really easy: Put the parallel flow gaskets on the block, mark the location and size of the three extra holes. Remove the gasket. Grab a 1/2" drill and a drill bit of the correct size, and pop the extra holes in the block. There is NO modification needed on the head castings. Some blocks have one of the holes already, but it needs to be ground oblong to properly match the gasket. Again, very easy with a hand held die grinder and rotary file."

That head gasket you said you installed looks like a parallel flow gasket... did you have holes at the bottom of the block deck surface that lined up with the large holes in the head gasket? If not, you might be overheating because you are choking the coolant flow off with those gaskets.

Also, just for simplicity... you might have a big air bubble in there too. Have you tried lifting the front of the truck as high as you can get it, then filling the coolant, and then running the engine to full warm with the radiator cap off?
 

Slooptin

Full Access Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2017
Posts
160
Reaction score
107
Location
Denver
First Name
Vance
Truck Year
1985
Truck Model
k30
Engine Size
454
There are two different things happening here.

First, the regular rotation and reverse rotation water pump does not change the coolant path. It only changes the way the pump moves the coolant through the same path because the pump rotates the opposite direction on the serpentine belt systems.

Second, the Mark IV coolant path is different than Gen V and Gen VI big blocks. The change was made in the block castings and head gasket though, so it has nothing to do with the water pump.

Here is one discussion I found on it:
"Coolant Routing Mk IV/Gen 5/Gen 6
There are two different ways that coolant can be routed through the engine: series flow and parallel flow. Both ways work just fine. There may be a slight preference for parallel flow, but it is not a big deal. Series flow has the water exiting the water pump, flowing through the block to the rear, it then transfers through the head gasket and into the cylinder head through two large passages on each cylinder bank at the rear of the block. The coolant then travels from the rear of the head, forward to the front of the head, into the intake manifold water passage and out past the thermostat and thermostat housing. The water cools the block first, then it cools the head. The coldest water (coming out of the water pump) is directly below the hottest water (having already picked up the heat of the block and the head) as the hot water transfers into the intake manifold. By contrast, parallel flow has the water exiting from the water pump into the block, where a portion "geysers" up into the head between the first and second cylinder, another portion "geysers" up to the head between the second and third cylinders, another portion geysers up to the head between the third and fourth cylinder, and the remainder transfers to the head at the rear of the block. The coolant temperature inside the engine is more even that way. The differences in coolant routing is having (or not having) the three additional coolant transfer holes in each block deck, and three matching holes in the head gasket. The heads have passages for either system, and are not different based on coolant flow.

Be aware that gaskets that DO have the three extra holes between the cylinders often have restricted coolant flow at the rear--instead of having two large coolant transfer holes at the rear, there is only one, and it's the smaller of the two holes that remains. This is important because if you use a parallel flow head gasket on a series flow block, you can have massive overheating and there's NOTHING that will cure the problem except to replace the head gaskets with ones that don't restrict flow at the rear of the block, or to drill the block decks to allow the coolant to flow into the head between the cylinders. Here's why they can overheat: A series-flow block doesn't have the openings between the cylinders, no coolant can flow up to the head there. The gasket may only have the single, smaller opening at the rear, so the amount of water that gets through that opening is greatly reduced from what the block designers intended. The result is that the coolant flow through the engine is only a fraction of what is needed.

Most, but NOT all Mk IV engines are Series Flow. ALL Gen 5 and Gen 6 engines are Parallel Flow. A series flow block can be converted to parallel flow by drilling 3 holes in each deck surface, and then use parallel flow head gaskets. You can use the parallel flow gaskets as templates for locating the additional holes. It's really easy: Put the parallel flow gaskets on the block, mark the location and size of the three extra holes. Remove the gasket. Grab a 1/2" drill and a drill bit of the correct size, and pop the extra holes in the block. There is NO modification needed on the head castings. Some blocks have one of the holes already, but it needs to be ground oblong to properly match the gasket. Again, very easy with a hand held die grinder and rotary file."

That head gasket you said you installed looks like a parallel flow gasket... did you have holes at the bottom of the block deck surface that lined up with the large holes in the head gasket? If not, you might be overheating because you are choking the coolant flow off with those gaskets.

Also, just for simplicity... you might have a big air bubble in there too. Have you tried lifting the front of the truck as high as you can get it, then filling the coolant, and then running the engine to full warm with the radiator cap off?
So this is the head gasket i installed https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...CwCNBFoqy5SGy47TxySTww5rLZt6keGc9_zXksOAgfKAa
The truck sits on an incline in my driveway (front up) and I've bled it for like 30 min so far. I'll bleed it again once i install the new rad and make sure the air is out
 

nvrenuf

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Posts
1,981
Reaction score
2,523
Location
Mobile, Al.
First Name
John
Truck Year
1991
Truck Model
K5
Engine Size
454
So this is the head gasket i installed https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...CwCNBFoqy5SGy47TxySTww5rLZt6keGc9_zXksOAgfKAa
The truck sits on an incline in my driveway (front up) and I've bled it for like 30 min so far. I'll bleed it again once i install the new rad and make sure the air is out

Interesting, this is in the Q/A for that product. Do you know the year of your block?

.
QUESTION: Paul

Fel-Pro PermaTorque Head Gaskets 8523PT1

Can this gasket be used to install gen V 088 head on 1975 Mark IV single lower coolant hole block? Can't seem to find a definitive answer, thank you

.

ANSWER: Fel-Pro Expert

Thank you for your question. From 1970-1979 Fel Pro shows the 8180PT2 head gasket, from 1980-1995 Fel Pro shows the 8523PT1 head gasket. IF your Gen-4 block has a coolant port under all 3 of head bolt holes that are between the cylinders in the block towards the exhaust side of the beck you can use the 8523PT1, if there is only one coolant hole under one of the blots you have to use the 8180PT2 gasket. Feel free to call the Fel Pro Tech Line at 800-325-8886
 

77Dmax

Full Access Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2024
Posts
74
Reaction score
146
Location
vt
First Name
Joe
Truck Year
1977
Truck Model
c20
Engine Size
6.6
Remote possibility, but if your new head gaskets are lacking some of the necessary water holes, that could be your problem. I bought new head gaskets for my Buick Nailhead, after doing a valve job on it, and noticed that they didn't have enough water holes. I made additional holes, but if I hadn't noticed, it probably would have been a chronic over heater.

J. B.

Most of the holes in the head gasket are blocked or partially blocked to direct coolant flow. The holes in the block are there to remove sand from the casting process. Its normal to see a 1" hole in the block and head but only an 1/8" hole in the gasket.. just the rear most holes are wide open. I'm familiar with buick junk, I actually got a package from TA today.
 

Bextreme04

Full Access Member
Joined
May 13, 2019
Posts
4,464
Reaction score
5,631
Location
Oregon
First Name
Eric
Truck Year
1980
Truck Model
K25
Engine Size
350-4bbl

Sad Sack

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2024
Posts
7
Reaction score
7
Location
Omaha, NE
First Name
Bryan
Truck Year
1985
Truck Model
C15
Engine Size
305
Can't recall but aren't FelPro 1037's the ones you need? Just shooting in the dark here...
 

Bextreme04

Full Access Member
Joined
May 13, 2019
Posts
4,464
Reaction score
5,631
Location
Oregon
First Name
Eric
Truck Year
1980
Truck Model
K25
Engine Size
350-4bbl
This is a serial flow block. Notice the lack of coolant holes on the exhaust side of the block surface below the head bolts in between the cylinders and also the large/small holes at the rear of the block deck surface. The correct series flow gasket will have matching holes just like the one laying on top of the engine in the picture.
You must be registered for see images attach


This is a parallel flow gasket(matches exactly the Fel-Pro 8523 PT you installed) set on top of a series flow block. Notice how the one coolant port at the rear exhaust side of the deck is severely blocked and the large port at the rear is completely blocked.
You must be registered for see images attach


If you have pics of the engine block deck surface before you put it back together, I would highly suggest you check and make sure you had the two additional lower coolant holes on the exhaust side of the deck like this.
You must be registered for see images attach


If not, you found your problem. Your two options at that point becomes either remove the heads, drill the holes, then reinstall the same PN gasket. Or you remove the heads and install the correct Series flow head gaskets(8180PT2).
 

nvrenuf

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Posts
1,981
Reaction score
2,523
Location
Mobile, Al.
First Name
John
Truck Year
1991
Truck Model
K5
Engine Size
454
@Bextreme04 that’s excellent big block trivia! I looked at my old pics and I do have those “extra” holes, in fact mine appear to be bigger than those in your pic.

I was hoping I had the part number for the head gaskets I used but my receipt just says “overhaul kit”.
 

Slooptin

Full Access Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2017
Posts
160
Reaction score
107
Location
Denver
First Name
Vance
Truck Year
1985
Truck Model
k30
Engine Size
454
This is a serial flow block. Notice the lack of coolant holes on the exhaust side of the block surface below the head bolts in between the cylinders and also the large/small holes at the rear of the block deck surface. The correct series flow gasket will have matching holes just like the one laying on top of the engine in the picture.
You must be registered for see images attach


This is a parallel flow gasket(matches exactly the Fel-Pro 8523 PT you installed) set on top of a series flow block. Notice how the one coolant port at the rear exhaust side of the deck is severely blocked and the large port at the rear is completely blocked.
You must be registered for see images attach


If you have pics of the engine block deck surface before you put it back together, I would highly suggest you check and make sure you had the two additional lower coolant holes on the exhaust side of the deck like this.
You must be registered for see images attach


If not, you found your problem. Your two options at that point becomes either remove the heads, drill the holes, then reinstall the same PN gasket. Or you remove the heads and install the correct Series flow head gaskets(8180PT2).
Dang that’s good to know. No pics unfortunately so it looks like I’ll be removing heads after all. Might as well at this point if I’m unsure
 

fnny6770

Full Access Member
Joined
May 11, 2024
Posts
55
Reaction score
29
Location
Pocatello
First Name
Paul
Truck Year
1980
Truck Model
3500 camper special
Engine Size
454
Here is something to consider, years ago I had a Pontiac 455 that I rebuilt from the ground up, everything was brand new, bought remanufactured quadrajet 4 barrel, engine had lots of power but I felt it could have a little more, sitting they're at idle the engine temperature would slowly creep up until pressure release through the radiator cap, I modified the water pump put a high flow rad fan, changed pulley sizes so that I could make that fan turn faster I'm running the biggest four core super cool radiator the money can buy, then when I drove the car the temps would come down a little bit but then eventually it would slowly creep up to where it would overheat. Since I did all the engine work myself except for machine work my new everything was fine or I thought I knew, changed head gaskets took the heads off opened up the coolant passages I did everything I could think of, but nothing would help. I'm frustrated because the engine ran fine before I rebuilt it, to make a long story short, I talked to an old head and he asked me is your carburetor running lean? I told him it's a newly manufactured carburetor, he told me if that carburetor is running lean your engine will overheat exactly the way I described it which is exactly the way you described it in your article. I put a different carburetor on there and guess what, everything worked beautifully! So I chased my tail changing everything else but one simple piece of equipment, I had a long discussion about how that's possible that running and lean condition can overheat your engine, seems strange but I'm telling you to try it and do your research. I change the Jets in the carburetor and put it back on not only did it not overheat but I had a little bit more power than I thought that engine could have. Good luck to you and keep us posted!
 

Slooptin

Full Access Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2017
Posts
160
Reaction score
107
Location
Denver
First Name
Vance
Truck Year
1985
Truck Model
k30
Engine Size
454
Here is something to consider, years ago I had a Pontiac 455 that I rebuilt from the ground up, everything was brand new, bought remanufactured quadrajet 4 barrel, engine had lots of power but I felt it could have a little more, sitting they're at idle the engine temperature would slowly creep up until pressure release through the radiator cap, I modified the water pump put a high flow rad fan, changed pulley sizes so that I could make that fan turn faster I'm running the biggest four core super cool radiator the money can buy, then when I drove the car the temps would come down a little bit but then eventually it would slowly creep up to where it would overheat. Since I did all the engine work myself except for machine work my new everything was fine or I thought I knew, changed head gaskets took the heads off opened up the coolant passages I did everything I could think of, but nothing would help. I'm frustrated because the engine ran fine before I rebuilt it, to make a long story short, I talked to an old head and he asked me is your carburetor running lean? I told him it's a newly manufactured carburetor, he told me if that carburetor is running lean your engine will overheat exactly the way I described it which is exactly the way you described it in your article. I put a different carburetor on there and guess what, everything worked beautifully! So I chased my tail changing everything else but one simple piece of equipment, I had a long discussion about how that's possible that running and lean condition can overheat your engine, seems strange but I'm telling you to try it and do your research. I change the Jets in the carburetor and put it back on not only did it not overheat but I had a little bit more power than I thought that engine could have. Good luck to you and keep us posted!
Appreciate the advice. Carb is running 11-12 afr at idle and will still get hot though
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
44,435
Posts
957,850
Members
36,802
Latest member
mcflurry
Top