Small Block Lifter Premature Wear

[Dalton Ream]

Hello All,
I have an issue with a lifter that had worn prematurely and I was looking for ANY insight as to why it's worn so bad and why so fast.
I have a 1980 K20 that I put a new Lunati 10120703 cam kit in back in early summer. The engine had been running and had about 2,000 miles on a fresh rebuild when I decided to add the cam kit. Tore the engine down, new piston rings and hone was the only other thing I did when installing the cam.
The engine has about 250 miles on the cam kit and my #8 intake lifter is already wasted! It started out as a light "ticking" sound that I believed was a header leak, but it kept getting worse and became more of a "clicking" just before I tore it down. I found #8 intake rocker to be VERY sloppy so I took the intake of and found the issue:

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There is a 0.040" dish in the center of the lifter and the outer edges appear to be chipped out like its been hitting hard. I managed to get some pictures of the cam lobe still in the engine with a scope camera, and I can't see much wear on the lobe at all. It appears all the wear was on the lifter. SO what would cause this??? was the lifter too soft? or maybe the end was too hard and brittle? Why would it wear this far in less than 250 miles?

 

[nvrenuf]

Typically, this issue would be related to...

1) Poor break in.
2) Poor adjustment.
3) Lack of zinc in the oil (many oils have cut way back on the zinc additive)

Imo, with the cam being so new it's going to be reason #1 or #2. There's a high probability the cam is hurt too, I'd bet new lifters on that cam will repeat the wear / damage.

 

[PrairieDrifter]

Cams and kits seem to be junk anymore.

 

[Dalton Ream]

Typically, this issue would be related to...

1) Poor break in.
2) Poor adjustment.
3) Lack of zinc in the oil (many oils have cut way back on the zinc additive)

Imo, with the cam being so new it's going to be reason #1 or #2. There's a high probability the cam is hurt too, I'd bet new lifters on that cam will repeat the wear / damage.

Thanks, John,

Do you know of any particular reason that only 1 lifter has an issue though? I could see the adjustment isolating this one out, but wouldn't poor break-in cause more than one of the lifters to fail?

Initial adjustment was 3/4 turn pre-load on all valves.

 

[Dalton Ream]

The crazy thing is, I followed all of the same procedures for this cam as I did for the Comp cam I took out. It had roughly 2,000 miles on it and nothing like this. I went to Lunati because:

1: the comp cam was too big for the engine to handle
2: comp's quality has been falling
3: Lunati is praised for having great quality

Here is the comp cam I removed. Same lobe (#8 intake)

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[Bextreme04]

I've seen some guys that got brand new lifter kits in and ~90% of them had the wrong shape machined on the face of the lifters. They are supposed to have a specific convex profile on the face so that they properly rotate on the cam lobe. If they fail to rotate, they will wear out like that and take the cam with them. You should also make sure when installing the lifters that they slide easily into the bore and can free spin, otherwise you can get the same problem from a burr or improperly sized lifter causing the lifter to catch and not rotate.

 

[DoubleDingo]

I think it's a 50 inch radius or something like that

 

[Dalton Ream]

I had the case hardness checked on all 3 lifters from the original images. The 2 lifters from the Lunati kit measured 49-50 HRC, while the new Sealed Power lifter measured in at 60 HRC. I would think 50 would be way too soft for a sliding wear item like this, correct? That would explain why the cam still looks pretty good and the lifter is shot. The cam was just grinding the lifter away.

Not sure how deep the Case is supposed to be, but I checked the center of the "dish" on the bad lifter and it's dead soft, as to be expected.


- P.S. When I removed the lifter, it came out without hanging up, just a magnet pulled it out. It could freely rotate and the wear lines on the outer diameter are pretty distinct, so it's been spinning for at least a while

 

[KnuckleBuster]

The engine had been running and had about 2,000 miles on a fresh rebuild when I decided to add the cam kit. Tore the engine down, new piston rings and hone was the only other thing I did when installing the cam.
There is a 0.040" dish in the center of the lifter and the outer edges appear to be chipped out like its been hitting hard. I managed to get some pictures of the cam lobe still in the engine with a scope camera, and I can't see much wear on the lobe at all. It appears all the wear was on the lifter. SO what would cause this??? was the lifter too soft? or maybe the end was too hard and brittle? Why would it wear this far in less than 250 miles?

Wow, new rings with only 2,000 miles? Was there an issue there, too?

That lifter wore out so fast that I would think a mechanical cause would be readily apparent. If not, my best guess would be improper break-in procedure. Did you use a cam break-in lubricant?

You might take a look at ET Automotive's website. I recently read some good info the concerning bad lifters and Chinese knockoffs. https://www.facebook.com/people/ET-Automotive/100057284777182/

 

[Bextreme04]

I had the case hardness checked on all 3 lifters from the original images. The 2 lifters from the Lunati kit measured 49-50 HRC, while the new Sealed Power lifter measured in at 60 HRC. I would think 50 would be way too soft for a sliding wear item like this, correct? That would explain why the cam still looks pretty good and the lifter is shot. The cam was just grinding the lifter away.

Not sure how deep the Case is supposed to be, but I checked the center of the "dish" on the bad lifter and it's dead soft, as to be expected.


- P.S. When I removed the lifter, it came out without hanging up, just a magnet pulled it out. It could freely rotate and the wear lines on the outer diameter are pretty distinct, so it's been spinning for at least a while

I'd be calling Lunati and asking them WTF? The images, measured hardness, and the things you have said already point to improper hardening of the lifters. Its a common issue with china knockoff lifters. You should have installed the cam and lifters with generous amounts of cam assembly lube and used a high zinc break-in oil like Lucas Break-in 30w or similar. If this is a hot cam with dual valve springs, many manufacturers recommend removing the inner spring for break-in. Then when you do your first start-up, immediately bring RPM up to 2000-2200rpm and hold that for 20 minutes, varying the rpm up and down a few hundred RPM throughout.

If you did all of that and it still wiped that lifter... its definitely a bad set of lifters. The act of breaking in the lifters actually work hardens them and if done properly you should have a higher hardness value than the new lifters.

 

[Dalton Ream]

Wow, new rings with only 2,000 miles? Was there an issue there, too?

That lifter wore out so fast that I would think a mechanical cause would be readily apparent. If not, my best guess would be improper break-in procedure. Did you use a cam break-in lubricant?

You might take a look at ET Automotive's website. I recently read some good info the concerning bad lifters and Chinese knockoffs. https://www.facebook.com/people/ET-Automotive/100057284777182/

No, it didn't NEED new rings, but i didn't like the hone job I had on the first rebuild, so I decided to hone again and put new rings in. Not a necessity, just a little OCD I guess..

I honestly have never used break-in lube for ANY rebuild. I make sure to use a liberal amount of assembly lube and get a good prime on the oil pump before starting up for the first time. I know that will probably make some guys' heads explode, but it's worked for me and my family for generations. We've been rebuilding and modifying car/truck/and tractor engines for decades, all personal use, and all still running just fine.

Thanks for the info, I'll give it a good read!

 

[vr1967]

I’ve never seen a lifter wear down like that. Have seen several that the center wore down, but the sides would flair and you’d have to knock it out the bottom.

I’d definitely call Lunati.

May or may not help. In the early 90s, we (close to a dozen of us) were wiping lobes left and right on Comp Cams BBC cams. One lost 9 lobes. Comp always said improper break in. We all changed to different brand cams, and never had another issue. They had a bunch of bad cam cores and would never admit it. Hopefully that is not the case here, but give Lunati a call.
I’d have bought the bad break in if it would have been 1 or 2, but almost a dozen cams.

 

[Dalton Ream]

I'd be calling Lunati and asking them WTF? The images, measured hardness, and the things you have said already point to improper hardening of the lifters. Its a common issue with china knockoff lifters. You should have installed the cam and lifters with generous amounts of cam assembly lube and used a high zinc break-in oil like Lucas Break-in 30w or similar. If this is a hot cam with dual valve springs, many manufacturers recommend removing the inner spring for break-in. Then when you do your first start-up, immediately bring RPM up to 2000-2200rpm and hold that for 20 minutes, varying the rpm up and down a few hundred RPM throughout.

If you did all of that and it still wiped that lifter... its definitely a bad set of lifters. The act of breaking in the lifters actually work hardens them and if done properly you should have a higher hardness value than the new lifters.

I talked to some engine guys I work with and they are all saying the lifters are too soft, and perhaps that specific lifter was a snug tighter than all the rest, it's no wonder it wore out so fast. I don't know what the factory hardness is supposed to be on these lifters, but 40-50HRC is still a relatively hard, but still machineable range... I work for an automotive supplier, and seemingly all hardened wear items get treated to the 58-64 HRC range.

This is a 268 cam with single springs and deadeners, nothing overly huge or fancy. I was also unaware that the lifters would actually work harden at break-in, I wouldn't have assumed so since they are a sliding function and not really impacting against each other. Learn something new everyday!

 

[Ricko1966]

I am really busy didn't have time to read everything if the block has burrs etc. In any lifter bore the lifter can't spin correctly and the bottoms wipe off of them. Always insert the lifter make sure it spins freely if not find out why and correct. A light hit with a brake hone a quick rub with some Emory cloth where a lifter has a nick. Etc. P.S. your tolerance changes with temp,room temp a little snug maybe really snug when hot.

 

[Bextreme04]

I honestly have never used break-in lube for ANY rebuild. I make sure to use a liberal amount of assembly lube and get a good prime on the oil pump before starting up for the first time. I know that will probably make some guys' heads explode, but it's worked for me and my family for generations. We've been rebuilding and modifying car/truck/and tractor engines for decades, all personal use, and all still running just fine.

The problem is that oil formulation has changed in the last 10 years. You used to have plenty of zinc and phosphorus in the oil to help support the work hardening of the lifters. They have slowly been reducing the amounts of those minerals in the last decade due to emissions standards and now modern oil will not support flat tappet camshaft health. Most modern conventional or synthetic oil will have 700-800ppm(or sometimes less) of those minerals present in the oil. The cam and lifter manufacturers will tell you that you should have AT LEAST 1300ppm or more to limit wear and support cam break-in. The Lucas break-in oil has about 2200ppm

Here's an article that explains it pretty well(I know, I cringed when I saw it was on speedway, but it is accurate information for the most part)
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-toolbox/best-oil-for-flat-tappet-cam/32480