Questionable Engineering

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Curt

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It’s a real pain sometimes,working on our squarebody trucks.

However,if it was to easy,I don’t know if these trucks would mean as much as they do.I have a relationship with my truck and it’s very personal.She can be a real pain in my side,but more often than not,she’s great.

If she was to easy,figuratively speaking,I wouldn’t want her.Nope,I’ve invested time,money,and blood.With out all that,it would be just another truck.

Now,I agree there’s a line,but working on a newer truck,my ol girl has never crossed it.

When it takes 3hrs to install a serpentine belt on a new truck,I look over and give my girl a smile.

just sayin
 

Keith Seymore

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Like, whoever designed the small block chevy isnt inherently dumb because they put the distributor in the back where i cant reach it. most trucks let alone any were made in the 50s that had such a wide engine bay and had factory lifts this high. a 50s truck likely you could reach it by leaning in.
Doesnt mean SBC is bad.
Doesnt mean squares are bad. Just means I have to use a ladder and ballast myself across the engine bay. maybe i should have chosen to grow taller

but whoever said lets put the bolt for it there deserves jail time

I'm 5' 11".

Where there's a will, there's a way.

K

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Vbb199

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I havent found anything that was really bs to work on a square except the oil pressure sensor being at the back of motor, transmission not clearing its tunnel with x over exhaust on a 2wd, and maybe the obsurd location of the heat/ac box bolts in the engine bay (cant think of anything else right now)

But i dont have many complaints anyways because i have ALOT of tools, and the tools i dont have when i encounter a situation, i either make them, or buy them.

One gripe i will forever remember, but have overcame with a shorty 1/2 drive socket and pair of vice grips, is the spark plug on cyl 3 on my s10's 4.3


Its behind the steering shaft.

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AuroraGirl

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I'm 5' 11".

Where there's a will, there's a way.

K

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I said i ballast over the engine lol. Its only bad in square because if truck were ground level or lowered i wouldnt need to use a ladder AND ballast. my buick has it in front

clearly buick boys a block down the street knew what was up
 

Keith Seymore

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LOL. (seriously).

Having given this some more thought: I think this is the crux of the matter:

The system is set up to build one million vehicles exactly the same. That means this: if you try to introduce a change "the system" is going to fight you.

Nothing happens automatically. Each transition between disciplines - from engineering to specifications, from specs to purchasing, from purchasing to logistics, from logistics to containerization, from containerization to the assembly plant, and then all the silos within the assembly plant (materials, material control, fork truck drivers, etc) - each of those interfaces is an opportunity for the ball to get dropped and the process stall out. Not only do you have to bridge those interfaces - it can get stalled out within each of those organizations, so you might have to track down the right purchasing guy (not easy in and of itself) to persuade him (using coffee, donuts, coercion, or worse) to do his job in order to keep things moving.

I've seen changes that were in process for years, like 4 years, and never got all the way implemented.

So basically if you want to make a change, no matter how small, you have to be passionate about that change, because you are going to have to birddog it and track it every step of the way.

And - you will have to do that while you have other fish to fry, across all those platforms I mentioned, and while doing current product support and future product designs. So you might have (a) Model year 2020 current product going down the line, (b) MY2021 pilot builds at a different plant going on for one model year out, and (c) MY2022 prototype builds going on at a preproduction facility and (d) MY2023 mule builds going on in mockup. All of those locations are creating issues and tracking logs and tasks for you to do at the same time. (God forbid an assembly line go down, or a build gets stopped. Then you are on double secret probation overtime).

I retired from GM after 40 years in product design and vehicle assembly. But - I've hired back on as an accessory design engineer at Nissan, so this is still all very fresh.

Just yesterday I approached the styling guys to request a change in the nominal gap between my racing stripe and the rear spoiler. The original gap was 5.5mm; I'm asking to change to 6.6mm, because of potential variation in the rear spoiler location (not my part). I asked them to respond, with their explicit approval, by close of business yesterday.

So today I get a note that says: "we can't picture it. Can you make some slides?" So today I'm making powerpoint slides for them to review, showing the gap at 5.5mm and 6.6mm and 10mm and 3.5mm because they lack the imagination or initiative to do it themselves.

Aren't they the "creative types" with all the imagination (and the proper tools to address this question)? Why does engineering (or me in particular) always have to do this? Beats me. I'm the one that wants to make the change and, so if I want it bad enough, by golly I have to do whatever it takes to keep the ball (all the balls) moving.

Why do I do it? Because I love playing with cars (and trucks...and tractors, and...) and because it is what I am made to do. It's what I do because it's what I do - at work, and at home. I was made to do this by birth, by training, by profession, and by preference. I've had this all planned out since I was 8 years old.

Being "retired" now - that's what I love about "nature". My chickens make eggs; my bees make honey; my maple trees make sap. Without my involvement. Without my coaxing. It's just what they do - naturally. Such a contrast to my entire worklife which has been spent trying to force inanimate objects to do "unnatural" acts within the confines of a mega-corporation.

K
 
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AuroraGirl

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LOL. (seriously).

Having given this some more thought: I think this is the crux of the matter:

The system is set up to build one million vehicles exactly the same. That means this: if you try to introduce a change "the system" is going to fight you.

Nothing happens automatically. Each transition between disciplines - from engineering to specifications, from specs to purchasing, from purchasing to logistics, from logistics to containerization, from containerization to the assembly plant, and then all the silos within the assembly plant (materials, material control, fork truck drivers, etc) - each of those interfaces is an opportunity for the ball to get dropped and the process stall out. Not only that - it can get stalled out within each of those organizations, so you might have to track down the right purchasing guy (not easy in and of itself) to persuade him (using coffee, donuts, coercion, or worse) to do his job in order to keep things moving.

I've seen changes that were in process for years, like 4 years, and never got all the way implemented.

So basically if you want to make a change, no matter how small, you have to be passionate about that change, because you are going to have to birddog it and track it every step of the way.

And - you will have to do that while you have other fish to fry, across all those platforms I mentioned, and while doing current product support and future product designs. So you might have (a) current product going down the line, (b) pilot builds at a different plant going on for one model year out, and (c) prototype builds going on at a preproduction facility. All of those locations are creating issues and tracking logs and tasks for you to do at the same time.

I retired from GM after 40 years in product design and vehicle assembly. But - I've hired back on as an accessory design engineer at Nissan, so this is still all very fresh.

Just yesterday I approached the styling guys to request a change in the nominal gap between my racing stripe and the rear spoiler. The original cap was 5.5mm; I'm asking to change to 6.6mm, because of potential variation in the rear spoiler location (not my part). I asked them to respond, with their explicit approval, by close of business yesterday.

So today I get a note that says: "we can't picture it. Can you make some slides?" So today I'm making powerpoint slides for them to review, showing the gap at 5.5mm and 6.6mm and 10mm and 3.5mm because they lack the imagination or initiative to do it themselves.

Aren't they the "creative types" with all the imagination? Why does engineering (or me in particular) always have to do this? Beats me. I'm the one that wants to make the change and, so if I want it bad enough, I have to do whatever it takes to keep the ball (all the balls) moving.

Being "retired" now - that's what I love about nature. My chickens make eggs; my bees make honey; my maple trees make sap. It's just what they do - naturally. Such a contrast to my entire worklife which has been spent trying to force "unnatural" acts.

K
I think you misinterpreted banter about being out of touch, just generally, with a personal attack on your career and livelihood.

I think we all understandthat there isnt some grand conspiracy to **** owners/mechanics over, be malicious, etc from engineers, it just happens the cruel, cruel invisible hand of capitalism slaps our face through the engineers, people who are making the direct applicable decisions enforcing their will. Like hitlers staff, ****** wasnt on the ground conducting trains or searching houses, he just made everyone else do it. Extreme example, yes, but its about how the profession becomes the punching bag or the public face, because its what we see while getting slapped we despise(as a society)
 

Keith Seymore

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No, no. I wasn't taking it personally, or as an attack. I know better than that and have nothing to prove (I like to think my work record and race career and the classics in my possession speak for themselves).

Just attempting to give some behind the scenes insight, or my perspective (a "teaching moment"), and I think it is especially fresh since I was just going through it yesterday and this morning.

I was just venting to my wife and then wheeled around in my chair and it all mysteriously appeared on my keyboard. It's hard for me to know how deep into the assembly and engineering process to go, so I have to rely on the feedback about what is "too much" and what is "just right".

I figured the LOL was going to set the tone. I hope it was helpful as it was presented in that gentle spirit, with perhaps a bit of exasperation sprinkled on top.

I would ask you to read all my posts with that in mind.

K
 
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Keith Seymore

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LOL. (seriously).

Having given this some more thought: I think this is the crux of the matter:

The system is set up to build one million vehicles exactly the same. That means this: if you try to introduce a change "the system" is going to fight you.

Nothing happens automatically. Each transition between disciplines - from engineering to specifications, from specs to purchasing, from purchasing to logistics, from logistics to containerization, from containerization to the assembly plant, and then all the silos within the assembly plant (materials, material control, fork truck drivers, etc) - each of those interfaces is an opportunity for the ball to get dropped and the process stall out. Not only that - it can get stalled out within each of those organizations, so you might have to track down the right purchasing guy (not easy in and of itself) to persuade him (using coffee, donuts, coercion, or worse) to do his job in order to keep things moving.

I've seen changes that were in process for years, like 4 years, and never got all the way implemented.

So basically if you want to make a change, no matter how small, you have to be passionate about that change, because you are going to have to birddog it and track it every step of the way.

And - you will have to do that while you have other fish to fry, across all those platforms I mentioned, and while doing current product support and future product designs. So you might have (a) current product going down the line, (b) pilot builds at a different plant going on for one model year out, and (c) prototype builds going on at a preproduction facility and (d) mule builds going on in mockup. All of those locations are creating issues and tracking logs and tasks for you to do at the same time. (God forbid an assembly line go down, or a build gets stopped. Then you are on double secret probabtion overtime).

I retired from GM after 40 years in product design and vehicle assembly. But - I've hired back on as an accessory design engineer at Nissan, so this is still all very fresh.

Just yesterday I approached the styling guys to request a change in the nominal gap between my racing stripe and the rear spoiler. The original cap was 5.5mm; I'm asking to change to 6.6mm, because of potential variation in the rear spoiler location (not my part). I asked them to respond, with their explicit approval, by close of business yesterday.

So today I get a note that says: "we can't picture it. Can you make some slides?" So today I'm making powerpoint slides for them to review, showing the gap at 5.5mm and 6.6mm and 10mm and 3.5mm because they lack the imagination or initiative to do it themselves.

Aren't they the "creative types" with all the imagination (and the proper tools to address this question)? Why does engineering (or me in particular) always have to do this? Beats me. I'm the one that wants to make the change and, so if I want it bad enough, by golly I have to do whatever it takes to keep the ball (all the balls) moving.

Why do I do it? Because I love playing with cars (and trucks...and tractors, and...) and because it is what I am made to do. It's what I do because it's what I do - at work, and at home. I was made to do this by birth, by training, by profession, and by preference. I've had this all planned out since I was 8 years old.

Being "retired" now - that's what I love about nature. My chickens make eggs; my bees make honey; my maple trees make sap. It's just what they do - naturally. Such a contrast to my entire worklife which has been spent trying to force inanimate objects to do "unnatural" acts within the confines of a mega-corporation.

K

Big tangent:

You've heard the urban legends about people "getting their truck built with a Corvette motor", or "somehow got the secret 100 mpg carburetor installed", etc? (Some of my own stories included).

I'm a "never say never" kind of guy (again - reference my own stories), but my explanation above is why it would be virtually impossible to have that happen.

I've followed hundreds of vehicles down the line as they were being built (several of which were my own). When we do future product pilot builds on the regular production assembly line we have a whole launch team from engineering, material, plant personnel, etc, tracking those parts and coordinating the various new part and option content. It is very difficult, seemingly nearly impossible, to accomplish even with an entire team working full time at their job. That makes it even more unlikely if you have a single individual, working alone on the sly, to try to change "their build" as it is going down the line. An individual component, like a trailer hitch, could get snuck through. A more complicated change, like adding air conditioning - probably not.

I have a friend that has worked 50 years as an hourly employee at the Pontiac plant (he's still working there). Back in the day he built up a factory blueprinted and hot rodded 421 in the experimental engine build area with the idea he was going to sneak it into his personal car as it was getting built.

When the day came he and his accomplice wheeled it over to the motor subassembly line and introduced it into the assembly process, clapping their hands together with giddy anticipation.

Imagine his horror about two hours later when he saw it going into the plain jane station wagon six vehicles in front of his. He had mis-counted where to place it back on the motor line.

;)

I always picture some little old lady going to get groceries and thinking "Man! This old wagon really runs!!

Back to topic ==>

K
 
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SquareRoot

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i have seen numerous complaints and im 22. our experience doesnt relate to the actual felt anecdotes. In a totality. Now, where I would say this concern is easily muted, most squares dont Rust the lines under that motor mount, I would just cut the tube a few feet down the line and flare it and put a fitting on, bypassing the need for the removal of the mount pad. Is it another connection that could be a strait shot? yes, but its low pressure fuel line that if it is not rusted(if anyones would be, its mine!) its not really going to danger or cause issue. Im not saying it was a terrible design it just could have been done better and will negatively impact the .0000005% who atually *need* to remove that fitting at that point.

Philosophical and quantitative!
 

Vbb199

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I think we all understandthat there isnt some grand conspiracy to **** owners/mechanics over, be malicious,


Are you SURE? Because some dimwit out there seemingly decided a starter under the intake of a acura (cant remember the line) would be a good idea.

I know theres an issue with that on one of the northstar motors too i believe.


Thats not even a minor change, thats like, hey, how can i **** the end user today?
I know. Lets move it from behind the motor to inside the motor.
 

AuroraGirl

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Are you SURE? Because some dimwit out there seemingly decided a starter under the intake of a acura (cant remember the line) would be a good idea.

I know theres an issue with that on one of the northstar motors too i believe.


Thats not even a minor change, thats like, hey, how can i **** the end user today?
I know. Lets move it from behind the motor to inside the motor.
im pretty sure the reason that is justfieid to us as people is 1) less room taken up(fwd craddles in mind, tight), 2) away from fluids/debris 3) stays cooler 4) something about where it is at gives a better torque gearing for turning the engine(idk about that)

BUT, dont get me wrong, its still stupid as ****. they should have figured it out.its a wear item. that doesnt typically last as long as the engine internals

spekaing of which, what cadillac did for like 8 years was CRIMINAL negligence. Not fixing the northstar head gasket issues even though KNOWING there was a strange problem at 100k miles where coolant became optional to the engine. THAT was deliberate.

My 1999 aurora has a northstar in it. Labeled AURORA 8
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Vbb199

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im pretty sure the reason that is justfieid to us as people is 1) less room taken up(fwd craddles in mind, tight), 2) away from fluids/debris 3) stays cooler 4) something about where it is at gives a better torque gearing for turning the engine(idk about that)

BUT, dont get me wrong, its still stupid as ****. they should have figured it out.its a wear item. that doesnt typically last as long as the engine internals

spekaing of which, what cadillac did for like 8 years was CRIMINAL negligence. Not fixing the northstar head gasket issues even though KNOWING there was a strange problem at 100k miles where coolant became optional to the engine. THAT was deliberate.

My 1999 aurora has a northstar in it. Labeled AURORA 8
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Booooooooo
 

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