Playing with hookers today. 10 out of 10!

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SquareRoot

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Sniper and ProFlo4(SquareRoot’s case) both used heated o2 sensors, but both give very specific locations for the sensor. I don't remember exactly, but I believe it’s within 12” of the collector and at least 18” of exhaust after the sensor.
Pf4 says "as close to the collector as possible". I did some research on the topic and generally it suggests within 12" of the collector. Since exhaust heat is not a factor with a heated sensor, I'm guessing it has to do with the oxygen content becoming more diluted the further downstream it gets.

I think I'll play it safe and move it up on the driver's side as suggested. I'd still like some scientific logic on why it matters just to satisfy my curiosity.
 

bluex

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Personally I would like to see if the readings are close to each other or not. Maybe by adding a second wide band gauge for the after y position. That's not a cheap option though. I doubt it would work well on mine because the y is way back at the rear of the trans.

The manifolds look good. I wish they had a v-band exit on them. I'll be watching to see how you like them after a few months/miles.
 

DoubleDingo

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I like 'em. I'll be following to see how the performance changed. I am running original single on my vortec gen1, it has 2 inch y-pipe going into single 2.5 and then 2.25 over the axle and it runs great. I bet it would run even better without the blockage on the exhaust manifolds and the taller exhaust ports of the vortecs.
 
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SquareRoot

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Well I stirred up a hornets nest on the Edelbrock forum with questioning the placement of the O2 sensor. Finally a tech moderator chimed in. Posting for general FYI on the subject:

"A Bosch LSU 4.9 Oxygen Sensor does not measure Oxygen.

It measures the Current going in and out of a Nernst Cell.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst_equation

One side of the Cell is pumping ION's in. Other side is pushing the ION's into the middle of the Cell.....after some Calibration, and using a algorithm associated with the fuel type used, a air to "other stuff" can be calculated.


In order for the ION's to move freely within the Nernst Cell it must be heated to around 800F. To cold and they don't move. To hot and the Cell is destroyed....... upstream, and downstream O2 sensors are specifically designed for the "Temperature Range" they are going to in counter......O2 sensors that come with the Edelbrock kits are upstream units.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

The Throttle Body, and Intake Manifolds used in Edelbrock's kit are engineered to "uniformly" and "consistently" fill all cylinders the same.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Cylinder Heads are the magical ONE WAY FLOW DEVICES that enable humans to make vehicles faster then other types of animals.

The Atomized Fuel ( from a injector or carburetor ) will get vaporized ( turned into a gas ) when it's in contact with the "heated" Intake Valve.
Do to the fact we don't have Air Heaters, or Glow Plugs. It takes some time for the Intake Valve to "consistently" vaporize the atomized fuel.
Hence why all EFI systems will rev a motor past it's normal idle speed when first started cold....builds up cylinder heat faster.

Do to the fact each cylinder warms up a tiny bit different then the others ( Ford had a "fix" for some of it's European vehicles..Google Ford coolant system fires ) you will always have a very small difference of fuel requirements for each cylinder when cold.
But, once the motor is warm. All cylinders should be symmetrical in their fuel requirements...... mechanical issues do change this. Bad valve seals, worn rings, etc.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Edelbrock's Calibration maps are Dyno tested using stock and their own aftermarket parts.
Or put another way: If the stock motor had major issues with fuel distribution that could not be improved with Edelbrock's intake manifold. Then a kit would not be produced for that motor....Buick, and Ford Flatheads.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

Exhaust Manifolds, and Headers.
Manifolds are designed thick to reduce the motors noise level.
Headers are made thin do to the pipes needing to be bent during the construction of the headers.
No Automobile Manufacturer uses Long Tube Headers with the Above Bosch O2 sensor......Google-images Ferrari F40 exhaust manifold, to see a true high performance header....see how it starts thick to keep the heat in the assembly. 100% opposite of traditional long headers.

A vehicle manufacturer is not going to "rely" on the O2's heater for consistent operation.....ever seen a O2 on the exhaust systems tip?
Their going to place the sensor in a section of the exhaust that consistently stays around 800F.
Most O2's are installed about two feet from the exhaust valve..... catalytic converter O2's are inches from them....the heat source.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

Conclusion:
Installation of the O2 should be close to the exhaust valve.
It's distance is dictated by "actually" testing it's location.....Hint: Welders use a paint crayon that melts at a set temperature.

Cylinder imbalance generally only occurs during cold starts, and it's only temporary for a very short time.

Hence: Over think the O2 Installation. Don't over think cylinder imbalance.
 

Frankenchevy

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Installation of the O2 should be close to the exhaust valve.
It's distance is dictated by "actually" testing it's location.....Hint: Welders use a paint crayon that melts at a set temperature.

Cylinder imbalance generally only occurs during cold starts, and it's only temporary for a very short time.

Hence: Over think the O2 Installation. Don't over think cylinder imbalance.
I wonder what temperature they are looking for? I don’t have a special crayon, but I have an infrared thermometer. When they say as close as possible after the collector; there’s a significant difference from a manifold to a long tube header in regards to that distance.

Also, when reading this temperature, do they have a certain protocol for revving the engine, or is the purpose of the crayon so they can take the vehicle for a drive and hammer on it a bit?
 

Frankenchevy

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Makes sense with sequentially fired MPFI vs TBI(sniper), that you’d be a bit less concerned with bank to bank AFR differences. That is, if all injectors are happy and functioning properly.
 

Nasty-LSX

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It should sound really good now! Good job.
 

Big Ray

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Very nice. Those hookers caught my eye some time ago...
 

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Looks like you'll be using either a heat specific crayon or a thermal infrared imaging thermometer to find the sweet spot.
 

SquareRoot

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I wonder what temperature they are looking for? I don’t have a special crayon, but I have an infrared thermometer. When they say as close as possible after the collector; there’s a significant difference from a manifold to a long tube header in regards to that distance.

Also, when reading this temperature, do they have a certain protocol for revving the engine, or is the purpose of the crayon so they can take the vehicle for a drive and hammer on it a bit?
They say 800 above. You would think with ceramic coated manifolds and both banks merging together it would retain the heat that far down the pipe. It's right in front of the convertor which requires a minimum temp to light off which now beg me to find out what that is. Standby.
 

SquareRoot

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From the Walker Website:

"At what temperature does a catalytic converter start working?


Normal operating temperatures of a converter are 500-800°F, and up to 1200°F when the vehicle is under heavy load. To melt the catalytic converter's substrate, the temperature inside the converter would have to exceed 2000°F.
https://www.walkerexhaust.com/support/tech-tips/common-catalytic-converter-q-and-a.html

Common Catalytic Converter Q&A - Walker Exhaust Systems

https://www.walkerexhaust.com/support/tech-tips/common-catalytic-converter-q-and-a.html"


I think what I'm going to do, since I ordered several O2 bungs, is put one in the traditional location on the DS pipe near the manifold outlet and add another one just past the merge collector in front of the V-band clamp. I just happen to have a O2 bung hole (I love saying that...lol) plug on hand. That way I can do some experimenting/data collection after its all back together.

I have a temp probe for my Fluke Multimeter that I can adapt to that plug and measure the internal temp of the pipe.

On another topic, we have a machine that can scan the Y-pipe and create a 3D digital file that can then be used on a CNC Pipe Bender. This high tech stuff is a benefit of working on a R&D Army base, lol. I would think that file would be worth it's weight in gold? I would be tempted to replicate my creation with stainless steel.
 

Fastduramax

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Absolute wealth of information guys ! That said I’ll be dropping in my SWP 572 Dart block AFR heads Sorensen “shorty” BB-8 headers Speedmaster single plane and Sniper injection over the winter, I’m assuming best course of action is to follow Holleys suggest O2 sensor location exactly to cover may ass, honestly for the life of me I can’t believe they only offer these kits with only one sensor makes absolutely no sense correct me if I’m wrong ! At the strong advice of Skip White my motor was broken in and Tuned on his Dyno before delivery…. That said completely controlled environment, his choice of headers and straight piped out the back of the building into some lucky neighbors yard lol
 

Craig Nedrow

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Here is my Bosch bung location: Where AEM said to put it. Have had it in over a year and no problems. Awesome tuning aid.
 

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SirRobyn0

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@SquareRoot Oh boy am I glad I found this thread. I will be really interested to see how you like the sound of the exhaust going from dual to single. And what you think of the change in smell from the exhaust.

If you recall from a previous discussion I had mentioned that on my truck when I had disconnected the air pump temporarily it took a bit longer for the cat converter to kick in. Based on that and that the cat creates some of it's own heat in it's process, I doubt the pipe before the converter sees 800F in normal driving. My point, based on that I'm guessing you'll move the O2 sensor back up by the manifold, so glad to hear you are planning for that possibility.
 

SquareRoot

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Got package 1 of 2 tonight. Hangers, SS 4" tip, oxygen weld in bungs. Yay, I got something to do tommorow.
 

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