Learning as I go, but I'm stumped. Timing or an ignition issue?

[Nicolai8775]

Long post, sorry, but I'm stuck and could use suggestions.

As the title says I'm learning as I go along with this project. I bought an 83 k10 that has a goodwrench 350, a weiand stealth intake, and it originally had an older holley 650. My brother "over revved it" and said he thought he messed up the lifters. So we took the intake off and inspected and indeed found some weird lifters. We replaced the lifters. We took one head off and filled the "bowls" where the valves are to try and see any damage to the valves that would allow water to flow through. It was tight, nothing leaked passed the valves.

It took a couple attempts to figure out how the valve lashing worked. We got them close by way of youtube videos then used the compression tester to make adjustments til we got 150psi compression in each cylinder after cranking it over 3 times each. We determined that the 1/4 - 3/4 turn after "zero lash" in the push rods was to much. Anymore than that and we had no compression. Are we wrong here?

We have a new Edelbrock 650cfm carb. New plug wires. Spark plugs were new until fouled by gas from trying to get it started with a leaky holley carb. The new carb has a nice flow of gas when pressing the throttle.

We cannot get this thing to start. We got it to run for about 3 seconds once. Often times it just sputters while it cranks over like it wants to start.

I timed it by having the valve covers off and observing the intake and exhaust valves closing. Top dead center is when the mark hits 0 on the timing tab after the intake completely closes, just before the exhaust starts to open, right? We have the HEI distributor aimed at #1 cylinder. I'll triple check tomorrow but the plug wires are in correct order. With #1 wire on the distributor sitting above the rotor. The power is attached to the coil. Only thing that's not is the tach, I need to replace the terminal on the end cause it falls out.

I have air(compression), fuel, and now I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong with my spark. Because I just don't see what I'm missing with the timing.

Any suggestions? Thanks for reading if you made it to the bottom lol

 

[LateOnTheBrakes]

What was "weird" about the lifters? If they are hydraulic lifters you don't really want to lash them the same as you would with a solid roller.

What do you mean "just before the exhaust starts to open"? How many degrees? The intake valve will close, there will be a travel to TDC again, spark goes off, piston goes to BDC, piston will be on it's way back up when the exhaust valve opens.

 

[LateOnTheBrakes]

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/how-to-set-initial-timing/

 

[Turbo4whl]

If I read your text right, you are not timed correctly.

The valves are not adjusted correctly.

The timing is 180 degrees off. Also, you either are spinning the engine backwards or you mixed up which valve is exhaust and which is the intake. The valves, exhaust closes then the intake opens. Both valves are closed at top dead center. Pull the distributor, turn the the engine one full turn and reinstall.

 

[Swearbody]

It took a couple attempts to figure out how the valve lashing worked. We got them close by way of youtube videos then used the compression tester to make adjustments til we got 150psi compression in each cylinder after cranking it over 3 times each. We determined that the 1/4 - 3/4 turn after "zero lash" in the push rods was to much. Anymore than that and we had no compression. Are we wrong here?

You may be over complicating it. I didnt see this YouTube video but I can tell you ive never used a compression tester to set hydraulic lifters. I would go back and try to simplify that procedure.
Get #1 on tdc then tighten the rocker til the pushrod will no longer move up and down(just to that point no more) and then go 1/2 turn. Rotate the crank 90 degrees and follow the firing order to the next cylinder(8). By turning the crank 90deg you are putting on tdc on the next firing cylinder. Repeat until done(1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2)

I timed it by having the valve covers off and observing the intake and exhaust valves closing. Top dead center is when the mark hits 0 on the timing tab after the intake completely closes, just before the exhaust starts to open, right? We have the HEI distributor aimed at #1 cylinder. I'll triple check tomorrow but the plug wires are in correct order. With #1 wire on the distributor sitting above the rotor. The power is attached to t

You have the distributor pointed at #1...how so? It kinda sounds right but.... The rotor inside the distributor needs to be pointed at #1@ tdc on compression stroke to set initial timing. This will point the distributor terminals more at the driver once its timed correctly
By pointing the actual distributor itself at #1(if the initial is set right) you are at about 10-15deg retard and want to go to 10-12deg adv

 

[Swearbody]

If this were a couple weeks from now id have a video on my channel for you. I know it isnt helpful yet but soon i promise. Im stabbing a new cam in so ill be walking through all this on video. Just been busy this week so ive slacked off.
Check out myvintageiron, tylers forgotten car rescue(formerly tylers garage). Both do good walk throughs on this.

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Thunderhead is a ford guy but he knows his stuff

 

[Nicolai8775]

If I read your text right, you are not timed correctly.

The valves are not adjusted correctly.

The timing is 180 degrees off. Also, you either are spinning the engine backwards or you mixed up which valve is exhaust and which is the intake. The valves, exhaust closes then the intake opens. Both valves are closed at top dead center. Pull the distributor, turn the the engine one full turn and reinstall.

If I read your text right, you are not timed correctly.

The valves are not adjusted correctly.

The timing is 180 degrees off. Also, you either are spinning the engine backwards or you mixed up which valve is exhaust and which is the intake. The valves, exhaust closes then the intake opens. Both valves are closed at top dead center. Pull the distributor, turn the the engine one full turn and reinstall.

Can you tell me why? I may have been to wordy lol. #1 Exhaust valve is the one closest to the front end of the truck and the intake is inside. I should post a pic but I'm about to walk into work.

So as we were cranking by hand, clockwise, we watched the exhaust open, then close. Kept turning saw the intake open then close. Kept turning til we saw the mark reach 0 on the timing tab to indicate TDC and full closure of intake and exhaust valves.

I out the distributor in, and I aimed the ROTOR not the distributor, sorry, at cylinder 1. And then put my plug wires on accordingly in the correct firing order.

 

[Nicolai8775]

You may be over complicating it. I didnt see this YouTube video but I can tell you ive never used a compression tester to set hydraulic lifters. I would go back and try to simplify that procedure.
Get #1 on tdc then tighten the rocker til the pushrod will no longer move up and down(just to that point no more) and then go 1/2 turn. Rotate the crank 90 degrees and follow the firing order to the next cylinder(8). By turning the crank 90deg you are putting on tdc on the next firing cylinder. Repeat until done(1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2)


You have the distributor pointed at #1...how so? It kinda sounds right but.... The rotor inside the distributor needs to be pointed at #1@ tdc on compression stroke to set initial timing. This will point the distributor terminals more at the driver once its timed correctly
By pointing the actual distributor itself at #1(if the initial is set right) you are at about 10-15deg retard and want to go to 10-12deg adv

We followed the videos exactly. But we found that once we set the push rod with resistance to spin and no up and down play, if we did more than a 1/4 turn, we lost compression. I don't know what this means. Does that mean a bigger cam, or wrong push rods? Anyways that's why we made it complicated by adding in the compression tester.

We did NOT rotate the crank 90° for each cylinder though. We just had it at TDC then adjusted exhaust and intake valve on 1, then there's a few more valves on that head that we could adjust and a few on the other side, according to the video, then rotate it 360, then adjust the rest. Then back 360 one more time to get back to TDC on #1. I think I like your way better.

 

[Matt69olds]

Assuming this isn’t a solid lifter camshaft, there will be oil trapped inside the lifter. That oil trapped is what takes up the valve lash while the engine is running. I don’t know if the oil trapped inside is enough to hold the valve open, but even if it does after a couple seconds the pressure should vent and close the valve. A 1/4-2/2 past zero lash is the textbook spec for hydraulic valve lash adjustment.

If the intake is still off the engine, the easiest fool proof way to adjust valve lash is to rotate the engine until the lifter is on the base circle of the cam (base circle is the side of the cam lope not pushing the lifter up). No concern about firing order, trying to figure out if it’s a intake or exhaust valve which way the engine rotates, etc.


Once all that is done, the easiest way to set initial timing is to put the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke. Slowly rotate the engine in the direction it turns until the timing mark stops at whatever the base timing spec is, say 8 degrees? Look at the distributor, the pickup coil and 8 teeth that look like this “>”. The pole piece of the distributor shaft have teeth that look like this “<“. Rotate the distributor until those teeth line up, and tighten it. If you want, you can verify the distributor is timed correctly by reinstalling the distributor cap putting a old spark plug in the number #1 plug wire, ground the plug threads to the engine block with a jumper wire. Turn on the key (don’t crank the engine!!) twist the distributor body back and forth. Each time those teeth line up and then move past each other, you should get a spark at the plug. If not, either you don’t have #1 correctly indexed, or you have ignition issues.

 

[MrMarty51]

Double check that rotor again. It sounds to Me like it is one spark plug terminal off.

 

[Swearbody]

So as we were cranking by hand, clockwise, we watched the exhaust open, then close. Kept turning saw the intake open then close. Kept turning til we saw the mark reach 0 on the timing tab to indicate TDC and full closure of intake and exhaust valves.

I out the distributor in, and I aimed the ROTOR not the distributor, sorry, at cylinder 1. And then put my plug wires on accordingly in the correct firing order.[/QUOTe
Thats the ticket!!

 

[Swearbody]

We did NOT rotate the crank 90° for each cylinder though. We just had it at TDC then adjusted exhaust and intake valve on 1, then there's a few more valves on that head that we could adjust and a few on the other side, according to the video, then rotate it 360, then adjust the rest. Then back 360 one more time to get back to TDC on #1. I think I like your way better.

you only get two cylinders per position on crank. 1-6 is the first two...cant remember the other sequence. If you did more than that you definitely are off. I always do mine one at a time anyway but im usually doing ten different things at once so it helps stay on track

If the intake is still off the engine, the easiest fool proof way to adjust valve lash is to rotate the engine until the lifter is on the base circle of the cam (base circle is the side of the cam lope not pushing the lifter up). No concern about firing order, trying to figure out if it’s a intake or exhaust valve which way the engine rotates, etc.

or this!!!!

 

[Swearbody]

Does that mean a bigger cam, or wrong push rods? Anyways that's why we made it complicated by adding in the compression tester.

Not the issue. You are still using the original pushrods right!! "bigger cam" isnt any bigger off the lobe and would adjust the same way as stock. Pushrod length will only change if going with a roller setup because the lifter is taller.

 

[Nicolai8775]

Assuming this isn’t a solid lifter camshaft, there will be oil trapped inside the lifter. That oil trapped is what takes up the valve lash while the engine is running. I don’t know if the oil trapped inside is enough to hold the valve open, but even if it does after a couple seconds the pressure should vent and close the valve. A 1/4-2/2 past zero lash is the textbook spec for hydraulic valve lash adjustment.

If the intake is still off the engine, the easiest fool proof way to adjust valve lash is to rotate the engine until the lifter is on the base circle of the cam (base circle is the side of the cam lope not pushing the lifter up). No concern about firing order, trying to figure out if it’s a intake or exhaust valve which way the engine rotates, etc.


Once all that is done, the easiest way to set initial timing is to put the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke. Slowly rotate the engine in the direction it turns until the timing mark stops at whatever the base timing spec is, say 8 degrees? Look at the distributor, the pickup coil and 8 teeth that look like this “>”. The pole piece of the distributor shaft have teeth that look like this “<“. Rotate the distributor until those teeth line up, and tighten it. If you want, you can verify the distributor is timed correctly by reinstalling the distributor cap putting a old spark plug in the number #1 plug wire, ground the plug threads to the engine block with a jumper wire. Turn on the key (don’t crank the engine!!) twist the distributor body back and forth. Each time those teeth line up and then move past each other, you should get a spark at the plug. If not, either you don’t have #1 correctly indexed, or you have ignition issues.

I'm gonna verify spark when I get home. The one thing that stood out there is "base timing of 8". You're saying I might not need to be at 0 degrees on the timing mark?

 

[Vbb199]

If I read your text right, you are not timed correctly.

The valves are not adjusted correctly.

The timing is 180 degrees off. Also, you either are spinning the engine backwards or you mixed up which valve is exhaust and which is the intake. The valves, exhaust closes then the intake opens. Both valves are closed at top dead center. Pull the distributor, turn the the engine one full turn and reinstall.

Timing 180 off..... Lol remember someone here on the forum had theirs 180 off and managed to get it cranked and it exploded the mufflers!?!