Crate engine swap advise please?

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73 C10

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What tuning combos have you tried?

Those 8" springs are probably some of the problem. You should be using the 5,4 or 3" springs. If you have a lopey cam you will have less vacuum at idle which requires lees spring tension. Rich was using an RV cam which pulls really strong vacuum at idle so he would have used a stronger spring. I don't know why he wanted you to run a stronger spring.

The rods I would go with would be 070x037 with a 098 jet and 101 or 104 secondaries and either a 4" yellow or a 3" blue step up spring.

Sorry but the specs of the carb were not updated to current. They are now I think.

1406 600 .098" .095" .075" x .047" yellow (4") .0935" 7/16"

I don't know if it's the pills your taking or that the carb types are interchangeable, but you stated you were looking at 1806 specs. Mines a 1406 if matter when making jet rod choices.
 

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Sorry but the specs of the carb were not updated to current. They are now I think.

1406 600 .098" .095" .075" x .047" yellow (4") .0935" 7/16"

I don't know if it's the pills your taking or that the carb types are interchangeable, but you stated you were looking at 1806 specs. Mines a 1406 if matter when making jet rod choices.

LOL No I have an 1806 and yes yours is a 1406.

Yes so since your at sea level and running a lopey cam with headers I would tune on the rich side. Your cam will determine how rich you need to go. Rich Weyand had a completely different cam so his needs and yours will not be the same at all.

I would run the rods and jets at either 23, 19 or 18 on your calibration chart in that order, and the secondaries probably 8% lean and I would go with at least the yellow and maybe even the blue step up springs.

The cam is what will determine how rich you need to go. So its hard to say exactly how rich you need to go. You just have to try different set ups and see what happens.

You did set the floats correctly though right ?

BUT you need the ignition working good and the timing set correctly before going through the tuning process for your carb!
 

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Also you MUST have a fuel regulator installed and set to 5-5.5 psi !!!
 

73 C10

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Ahh OK so just read through that thread and just wondering where you got with everything.

Im thinking you just really need to get it set up properly from timing to good ignition to properly tuned carb, and then see where your at.

For starters do you have a Fuel regulator hooked up?



No Regulator

Did you set the floats to Edelbrock's specs?


Yes, 7/16"

Did you recurve the distributor? If so with what?


Yes, I tried using a Crane limiter. Limited to 10*. Right now it is stock. No limiter.

Good plugs?


Good plugs. Nice and golden on half. White on the other half. AC Delco R44T gapped .040"

Good wires?


Yes, Brand new. MSD.

New cap and rotor?


Yes, both. Brand new. Also MSD.

What is your timing at idle with the timing light? and @ 3000 RPM ?


12*. I don't know about @3000.
 

rich weyand

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Wow. Been busy, just catching up.

Yup, with low vacuum you should use lower step-up springs. The general rule is that the step-up springs should be half your idle vacuum. So if you have 18" of vacuum at idle, like I do, you use the 8" springs and stretch them a quarter-inch to get them to be more like 9". If you are running a lopey cam with 8" of vacuum at idle, run the 4" springs, and so on.

But the best (only, as far as I am concerned) way to properly tune a carb is get an AF/R meter and tune it to the numbers. Yeah, I know, it's $300 bucks. But people get on the forums, and complain about performance, and want to know about swapping cams and carbs and even heads, or putting in new engines, and Guess what? If you don't tune that newly built engine right, it will still suck. Thousands of dollars later, and it will still suck, where for hundreds you could get a decent AF/R meter and make what you have perform as best as it can, and then decide. And if you then spend the extra money on bunches of new parts, you will still have a good AF/R meter to set that up properly and get the best out of it.

I guess that's a lost cause when you ask people complaining about their truck's performance what their timing is set at or what vacuum they are pulling at idle and they don't know because they don't have a $20 timing light or vacuum gauge. Criminy.

And then there's the people who recurve their vacuum advance and mechanical advance, and then run crappy wires and the wrong plugs. No, "hotter" with regard to plugs does not mean high performance. The stock GM distributor curves are actually pretty good, and the recommended plugs are -- surprise! -- generally the right ones. You actually want to run about the coldest plugs you can without oil fouling, because hotter plugs solve oil fouling but will aggravate pre-ignition problems. Ask the guys at the dirt tracks what they run in SBCs and they will all tell you Autolite 24s. Wires? Taylor, period.

And don't get me started on ported vs. vacuum advance. I remember when ported advance was introduced in 1968, and we were all like "You gotta be kidding me." 4 degrees BTDC base timing? We laughed. 16 degrees BTDC base timing, 15 degrees of vacuum advance on manifold vaccum, 20 degrees of mechanical advance is the sweet spot for SBCs, and has been since 1955. I know, we had a 1955 Chevy 210 with the 265 SBC when I was a kid, with a 4.11:1 rear end and an electric overdrive for gas mileage on the highway. Dad put glass packs on it and replaced the carb with a downdraft and a flatter air cleaner to get it under the hood, and that thing would move.

OK, OK, rant over.

Yeah, MO, the Edelbrocks have air flaps on the secondaries. They are weighted closed and operated by air velocity in the secondaries. I may get a Qjet and swap it in on my truck and see what difference a correctly tuned Qjet dialed in by the numbers makes over a correctly tuned Edelbrock dialed in by the numbers, just for giggles. I've sent a query off to SMI. We'll see. If so, I'll let you all know.

On the crate engine question, one problem is that we don't know the history of our engines. How were they treated before we got them? The nice thing about getting a base 350/260 GM crate engine is that those issues are off the table, and you have a known blank slate to start from. Replacing the cam is one step up, replacing heads is another. You can drop the bottom and swap out pistons as well if you want to go whole hog, but at least you know what you are starting with, and it won't kill your wallet. Going with a roller-cam crate engine is another way to start from a known point.

Starting from a known point like that makes things a lot easier, because the paths from there to some specific performance numbers are so well-trodden and the write-ups on setups from those starting points, like my setup from the 350/260 as a starting point, are all over the net.
 

73 C10

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I think MadOrge has best advice for ya. I would get motor you have tuned proper. If you don't already have one I would get a vacuum gage. It will help with tuning. I would get one you can mount some were you can read it while in the truck while you drive. Use the vacuum gage for timing and your idle mixture setting. Play with different timing settings and make notes of the vacuum readings. You have to do all of your tests the same, same road, same speed. If you get a tune up kit for the carb you can do the same with it. Change step up springs, test, change metering rods, test. And for your full throttle jetting on the sec side you do it with a stop watch. What ever gives you the fastest 0-60 is how you pic your jetting. Also for idle and cruse you can look at the plugs and make sure there tan. Your edelbrock also is designed for 6PSI of fuel pressure so pressure more or less can effect float level. If these do not yield the power your after then do a compression check and if all cylinders are good pressure I say do a cam swap and see were your at.

Thanks. I have a vac. gauge and have had it hooked up inside and watched it as you suggest. It is interesting how much you can diagnose with one. I was following some direction to get a richer mixture at the time and I thought things were getting worse, and smelling really rich at that time so I set everything back to stock.
 

rich weyand

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This all sounds OK to me. I would run R45TS at .045", but if you are not getting oil fouling that's probably OK. The MSD stuff I don't know about.


For starters do you have a Fuel regulator hooked up?



No Regulator

Did you set the floats to Edelbrock's specs?


Yes, 7/16"

Did you recurve the distributor? If so with what?


Yes, I tried using a Crane limiter. Limited to 10*. Right now it is stock. No limiter.

Good plugs?


Good plugs. Nice and golden on half. White on the other half. AC Delco R44T gapped .040"

Good wires?


Yes, Brand new. MSD.

New cap and rotor?


Yes, both. Brand new. Also MSD.

What is your timing at idle with the timing light? and @ 3000 RPM ?


12*. I don't know about @3000.
 

73 C10

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LOL No I have an 1806 and yes yours is a 1406.

Yes so since your at sea level and running a lopey cam with headers I would tune on the rich side. Your cam will determine how rich you need to go. Rich Weyand had a completely different cam so his needs and yours will not be the same at all.

I would run the rods and jets at either 23, 19 or 18 on your calibration chart in that order, and the secondaries probably 8% lean and I would go with at least the yellow and maybe even the blue step up springs.

The cam is what will determine how rich you need to go. So its hard to say exactly how rich you need to go. You just have to try different set ups and see what happens.

You did set the floats correctly though right ?

BUT you need the ignition working good and the timing set correctly before going through the tuning process for your carb!

Regarding:

I would run the rods and jets at either 23, 19 or 18 on your calibration chart in that order, and the secondaries probably 8% lean and I would go with at least the yellow and maybe even the blue step up springs.

I have tried 23, 19, 18 and the murmur did not go away so I'm back at #1.

Regarding:

You did set the floats correctly though right ?

Yes I did. I used a 7/16" drill bit. But I guess I need a regulator.

Regarding:

BUT you need the ignition working good and the timing set correctly before going through the tuning process for your carb!

I have had this on my mind. I have wondered if the distributor is causing the murmur.
 

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A lot of people will tell you to set your float at 1/4". 7/16" maybe to low and giving you fuel troubles too.
 

73 C10

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Hi Rich,

I guess you see what's up. I gave up in frustration, and started thinking about crates to get past my issues.

I would still like to make what I have work.

All I know is that though everything we have tried, the murmur has remained.

I wonder if it is the distributor.

Most of the advise has been carb and timing.

Also, the carb whistles a bit. I've been looking for a leak but haven't found one. I am willing to ditch the Edlebrock if the Demon or something else is a worthwhile upgrade. I can spend ~$300-350.
 

rich weyand

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Sorry but the specs of the carb were not updated to current. They are now I think.

1406 600 .098" .095" .075" x .047" yellow (4") .0935" 7/16"

I don't know if it's the pills your taking or that the carb types are interchangeable, but you stated you were looking at 1806 specs. Mines a 1406 if matter when making jet rod choices.


That sounds lean on cruise and rich in the power circuit to me. If you take pi*r-squared for the jet and subtract pi*r-squared for the rod to get area of the opening, you are 0.0063 square inches on cruise and 0.0116 square inches on the power circuit. I would think numbers closer to 0.0080 square inches and 0.0100 square inches would be closer. That would mean .068/.057 rods. Edelbrock #1436.

Of course, the only way to know for sure is to put an AF/R meter on it.

Looks like Ballenger is relabeling the original NGK Powerdex AFX, which is what I have. Works great.
http://www.amazon.com/Ballenger-Mot...436814404&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=ngk+afr+meter

NGK updated their packaging, probably as a cost reduction:
http://www.eraceparts.com/item2077.html
 

73 C10

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The MSD stuff I don't know about.

The wires are MSD Street Fire Wires Part# 5562

Helically wound conductor suppresses electro and radio noise
• Kevlar core combination for great strength and durability
• Heavy duty terminals for secure connection and silicone boots protect against high exhaust temps
• 8 mm silicone and synthetic jacket resists heat and abrasion
• 505 ohms per foot resistance for improved spark delivery and power
 

73 C10

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That sounds lean on cruise and rich in the power circuit to me. If you take pi*r-squared for the jet and subtract pi*r-squared for the rod to get area of the opening, you are 0.0063 square inches on cruise and 0.0116 square inches on the power circuit. I would think numbers closer to 0.0080 square inches and 0.0100 square inches would be closer. That would mean .068/.057 rods. Edelbrock #1436.

Of course, the only way to know for sure is to put an AF/R meter on it.

Looks like Ballenger is relabeling the original NGK Powerdex AFX, which is what I have. Works great.
http://www.amazon.com/Ballenger-Mot...436814404&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=ngk+afr+meter

NGK updated their packaging, probably as a cost reduction:
http://www.eraceparts.com/item2077.html

I hear you. But it smells rich like it is. I am assuming because it is missing and I am smelling that un-burnt fuel?
 

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That sounds lean on cruise and rich in the power circuit to me. If you take pi*r-squared for the jet and subtract pi*r-squared for the rod to get area of the opening, you are 0.0063 square inches on cruise and 0.0116 square inches on the power circuit. I would think numbers closer to 0.0080 square inches and 0.0100 square inches would be closer. That would mean .068/.057 rods. Edelbrock #1436.

Of course, the only way to know for sure is to put an AF/R meter on it.

Looks like Ballenger is relabeling the original NGK Powerdex AFX, which is what I have. Works great.
http://www.amazon.com/Ballenger-Mot...436814404&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=ngk+afr+meter

NGK updated their packaging, probably as a cost reduction:
http://www.eraceparts.com/item2077.html

That is there stock calibration for the 1406 at sea level which should work just fine for a stock motor. The cam is gonna require it to be run richer then stock with weaker springs because the lopey cam will not make much vacuum.

IMO the ignition is probably causing some of the issue. Which needs to be dealt with before even looking at the carb any further!
 

73 C10

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That is there stock calibration for the 1406 at sea level which should work just fine for a stock motor. The cam is gonna require it to be run richer then stock with weaker springs because the lopey cam will not make much vacuum.

IMO the ignition is probably causing some of the issue. Which needs to be dealt with before even looking at the carb any further!

I guess I'll go by the junk yard a pull a distributor. It'll be good practice. Mine is so close to firewall, I didn't think it would come out without pulling the engine forward. Maybe it will.
 

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