Are crate motors really cheaper?

[Irishman999]

I think it was my local buddy Wagonman that was talking about their quality, he was a gm technician for years. He said at first the motors were put together like ****, even mentioned one missing a main cap. He did say they got alot better now, I think I am just going to build one.

 

[HotRodPC]

I know you guys remember a while ago when I was looking at a rebuilt craigslist motor a kid was selling for 5 bucks.... He had another one he was building on a stand a few feet away and I kept noticing him out of the corner of my eye pulling the caps off and putting them in random order.

I couldn't hold back, the block looked like it was fresh from the machine shop and already had all the freeze plugs and **** in it. I asked if he was keeping the caps in order and he looked at me completely confused, I had to explain how paying to get everything line bored would have cost more than just starting over. The machine shop did mark them but he was getting ready to put that **** back together in random order. I doubt he knew what plastiguage was either.

That was one big reason I did not pursue the other engine he was selling.

That's a fact, first thing to any motor rebuild is a proper tear down starting with a stamp set and marking every rod and rod cap, and every main cap. If you're having your rods resized which I always do, or turning the crank which I always do if its anywhere near marginal, you don't have to have the rods marked, but I sitll mark them and put them back where they came from. There will be times you notice some kind of wierd damage on a rod or a crank journal, and if you do, then you want to check that other matching component with an extra degree of care and possibly even just replace it. If you didn't mark it, then you don't know which one it was.

 

[1low4x4]

Im coming in on this late, but 2500 for a crate is high. I'm pretty sure I found some on summit for a thousand less.

When I bought the red 85 it had a spun bearing.

Pulled it out, tore it down, had the block and crank sent to the shop. Guy said crank is bad. Bought a new crank for $200 which came with new clevite bearings.

The block received a cleaning, new cam bearings installed, a hone, and new freeze plugs. Cost me $140.00.

I figured why not buy flat top pistons. Cost me $100 (not needed to rebuild just wanted them).

re-used rods, re-used cam and lifters.

Bought a good fel-pro gasket set, ($85-now the same set for half that on summit)
Bought a new fuel pump, oil pump, water pump, plugs, wires, cap and rotor, belts, everything you could get to tune it up completely. Like $175 bucks.

I might be missing something but thats the jist of it. Motor run smooth and strong. Put it together myself. So the total for the parts and machine work was $800 (forgot to mention, charged me $40 to press new pistons on old rods). 60 for rings.

So, lets say 800 total. and if your crank out of your 350 isnt bad, you save 200 bucks. and If you dont need new pistons, save 140 from buying them and having them put on the rods.

That equals $460.

Like I said my 350 runs fabulous and has no problem wrapping the speedo around. Id say you could definitely rebuilddtock for cheaper than a crate.

 

[1low4x4]

And before any one flames me, I did have everything in the engine checked. Which is why I re-used somethings, they were fine.

I also hand lapped the valves on the heads.

There is nothing wrong with a rebuilt 350 when done correctly

 

[HotRodPC]

I know you guys remember a while ago when I was looking at a rebuilt craigslist motor a kid was selling for 5 bucks.... He had another one he was building on a stand a few feet away and I kept noticing him out of the corner of my eye pulling the caps off and putting them in random order.

I couldn't hold back, the block looked like it was fresh from the machine shop and already had all the freeze plugs and **** in it. I asked if he was keeping the caps in order and he looked at me completely confused, I had to explain how paying to get everything line bored would have cost more than just starting over. The machine shop did mark them but he was getting ready to put that **** back together in random order. I doubt he knew what plastiguage was either.

That was one big reason I did not pursue the other engine he was selling.

That's a fact, first thing to any motor rebuild is a proper tear down starting with a stamp set and marking every rod and rod cap, and every main cap. If you're having your rods resized which I always do, or turning the crank which I always do if its anywhere near marginal, you don't have to have the rods marked, but I sitll mark them and put them back where they came from. There will be times you notice some kind of wierd damage on a rod or a crank journal, and if you do, then you want to check that other matching component with an extra degree of care and possibly even just replace it. If you didn't mark it, then you don't know which one it was.

Another tidbit. I am very anal about having rods resized at the bare minimum. I actually get my rods, cleaned, magnafluzed, shot peened which stress relieves them, big end resized which they are also check for twist during that procedure, and ARP rod bolts fitted if its anything above a stock cam. My SIL was building a motor for the first time about 2 years ago. I told him to wait til I got there and could help. He didn't, but I did tell him, get the rods resized. He said, that's not in the budget. I budgeted $1200 on this build and I am already at $1500 with the extras. I demanded he do it and told him, is usually about $60 and its pure insurance or your $1500 job maybe down the drain. My daughter finally told him, so what, its $60, if my dad said to do it, then you better do it. Guess it had been awhile since I had it done, cuz it cost him $80, but he was sure glad he did. He ended spending like $100 because he had a twisted rod and the machinst found it. He told me the rods all looked good. But he was amazed when he went to the machine shop and they showed him how they could tell it was twisted. He didn't find it, but was about to blow or quickly wear out a $1500 motor build. At 6500 rpm, I don't think it would have taken long at all.

 

[Irishman999]

Im coming in on this late, but 2500 for a crate is high. I'm pretty sure I found some on summit for a thousand less.

When I bought the red 85 it had a spun bearing.

Pulled it out, tore it down, had the block and crank sent to the shop. Guy said crank is bad. Bought a new crank for $200 which came with new clevite bearings.

The block received a cleaning, new cam bearings installed, a hone, and new freeze plugs. Cost me $140.00.

I figured why not buy flat top pistons. Cost me $100 (not needed to rebuild just wanted them).

re-used rods, re-used cam and lifters.

Bought a good fel-pro gasket set, ($85-now the same set for half that on summit)
Bought a new fuel pump, oil pump, water pump, plugs, wires, cap and rotor, belts, everything you could get to tune it up completely. Like $175 bucks.

I might be missing something but thats the jist of it. Motor run smooth and strong. Put it together myself. So the total for the parts and machine work was $800 (forgot to mention, charged me $40 to press new pistons on old rods). 60 for rings.

So, lets say 800 total. and if your crank out of your 350 isnt bad, you save 200 bucks. and If you dont need new pistons, save 140 from buying them and having them put on the rods.

That equals $460.

Like I said my 350 runs fabulous and has no problem wrapping the speedo around. Id say you could definitely rebuilddtock for cheaper than a crate.

Thats exactly why I started this thread Nick, cheapest crate engine at Summit is 1600, I did not see it at first and thought the cheapest one was 2500.

Numbers were not adding up for me, I guess it all depends on finding a good core to rebuild.

 

[crazy4offroad]

Pay attention to the horsepower/torque rating of the crate engines, prices often reflect the output you can expect.

 

[HotRodPC]

Thats exactly why I started this thread Nick, cheapest crate engine at Summit is 1600, I did not see it at first and thought the cheapest one was 2500.

Numbers were not adding up for me, I guess it all depends on finding a good core to rebuild.

Pay attention to the horsepower/torque rating of the crate engines, prices often reflect the output you can expect.

True That C4. The cheaper crate motor I belevie is the 160Hp motor. Then as the price goes up, I think you can get to 210hp. Likley about the only difference is the cam. You could always go with the cheap one then swap the cam out, use your intake and headers and be getting a bit better than the 210hp. I'm with 1low though, I do prefer flat top pistons and usually if you buy a kit, they are not any more cost if you request them, or maybe $20 more. The reason I like flat tops, is not because of the added compression which with a stock cam and the right head means you have to run 91 octane, but so I can run a bigger cam which with a ltitle overlap will reduce and compensate the compression and still be able to run 87 pump gas.

Many are not aware of the difference in static and dynamic compression ratios. Then some beleive in this ******** of running a flat top piston in a 350 and use a 305 small CC head to raise compression. Sure it raises compression, but then you have small ass valves, small ports, so you have a high compression motor with emphysemia that can't friggin breathe. Just saying, Iman, and 1low, doing the right things getting opinions on your builds. Differant people who know these things also have difference in opinions, but it you listen to all the opinions, it ill will intrigue your mind to do some of your own research and you decide which opinion fits you best. Cuz it doesn't mean anyone who knows is wrong, it just means they build for a different purpose.

Myself, I like to built t orun on 87 pump gas, and run good. I also like to run a sleeper. Sure the lope sounds good, but I like to build so it sounds stock, then beats the living dog **** out of some competition. I love the element of suprise.

 

[Irishman999]

True That C4. The cheaper crate motor I belevie is the 160Hp motor. Then as the price goes up, I think you can get to 210hp. Likley about the only difference is the cam. You could always go with the cheap one then swap the cam out, use your intake and headers and be getting a bit better than the 210hp. I'm with 1low though, I do prefer flat top pistons and usually if you buy a kit, they are not any more cost if you request them, or maybe $20 more. The reason I like flat tops, is not because of the added compression which with a stock cam and the right head means you have to run 91 octane, but so I can run a bigger cam which with a ltitle overlap will reduce and compensate the compression and still be able to run 87 pump gas.

Many are not aware of the difference in static and dynamic compression ratios. Then some beleive in this ******** of running a flat top piston in a 350 and use a 305 small CC head to raise compression. Sure it raises compression, but then you have small ass valves, small ports, so you have a high compression motor with emphysemia that can't friggin breathe. Just saying, Iman, and 1low, doing the right things getting opinions on your builds. Differant people who know these things also have difference in opinions, but it you listen to all the opinions, it ill will intrigue your mind to do some of your own research and you decide which opinion fits you best. Cuz it doesn't mean anyone who knows is wrong, it just means they build for a different purpose.

Myself, I like to built t orun on 87 pump gas, and run good. I also like to run a sleeper. Sure the lope sounds good, but I like to build so it sounds stock, then beats the living dog **** out of some competition. I love the element of suprise.

I could probably build it to 450 horses and still get my ass kicked by any new pickup, because while I am waiting for 300 pounds of gears, shafts and syncro's to align anything that can shift gears in less than 10 seconds goes past.

So if I ran some flat top pistons and got a little better compression could I still get it to pass smog? At some point in the future I want to bolt the stock intake back on and the Q-jet.

 

[HotRodPC]

I could probably build it to 450 horses and still get my ass kicked by any new pickup, because while I am waiting for 300 pounds of gears, shafts and syncro's to align anything that can shift gears in less than 10 seconds goes past.

So if I ran some flat top pistons and got a little better compression could I still get it to pass smog? At some point in the future I want to bolt the stock intake back on and the Q-jet.

You're right about that, SM465 aren't quick shifting trasmisisons but you'll be pull any new truck sideways down the street.

No, raising your compression will not hurt emmisions. You're only talking maybe 1 pt. Reason compression ratings dropped was cuz gubment standards on what could be in gas, lowered octane ratrings. With low octane, timing had to be retarded. So lower compression motors were made to compensate that. I have a feeling your truck can run farily dirty and still pass. I think the big thing, is going to make sure its not burning alot of oil, carb is adjusted properly, and the visual requirments ,ike EGR and Cat are in place.