Torque Converter Recommendation

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

K5 Blazer

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2023
Posts
13
Reaction score
11
Location
Sant Cruz, CA
First Name
Holden
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
K5 Blazer
Engine Size
6.0L LS
I have a 1973 K5 Blazer 4x4, LS swap with a stock 6.0L motor with long tube headers, 4l60e transmission, 33 tires and 3.07 rear end. The TC is a 300mm. The Blazer will be a daily driver with around town and freeway driving. I am leaning towards buying an OEM reman TC because that seems safe and I don't have an idea on what I should get. Seeing if anyone has a good recommendation?

Thank you!
 

Matt69olds

Full Access Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Posts
2,451
Reaction score
3,819
Location
Central Indiana
First Name
Matt
Truck Year
81
Truck Model
GMC 1/2 ton
Engine Size
455 Olds
Order a replacement remanufactured converter for the Suburban or similar heavy vehicle. Assuming the engine is stock other than headers a stock converter should work well.
 

NickTransmissions

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2023
Posts
412
Reaction score
851
Location
Las Vegas
First Name
Nick
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
R10
Engine Size
350
I have a 1973 K5 Blazer 4x4, LS swap with a stock 6.0L motor with long tube headers, 4l60e transmission, 33 tires and 3.07 rear end. The TC is a 300mm. The Blazer will be a daily driver with around town and freeway driving. I am leaning towards buying an OEM reman TC because that seems safe and I don't have an idea on what I should get. Seeing if anyone has a good recommendation?

Thank you!
Standard TMBX replacement from GM will work. Your final drive ratio is 3.07?
 

bucket

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Posts
30,445
Reaction score
28,347
Location
Usually not in Ohio
First Name
Andy
Truck Year
'77, '78, '79, '84, '88
Truck Model
K5 thru K30
Engine Size
350-454
Replace the gears with 3.73 or 4.10:1, minimum for a big improvement. Imho, 4.56:1 would be even better.
 

nvrenuf

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Posts
1,957
Reaction score
2,460
Location
Mobile, Al.
First Name
John
Truck Year
1991
Truck Model
K5
Engine Size
454
With 33’s and 3.07’s it’s grossly under geared so you are always lugging the motor and consequently building extra heat in the transmission. By design a torque converter slips (creating heat), if you get one with a higher stall rating it’ll just make even more heat.

You need to gear the truck properly first then if you want a stall converter call an actual manufacturer (not a seller like Summit, etc) and discuss the truck specs (including weight) and expectations.
 
Last edited:

NickTransmissions

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2023
Posts
412
Reaction score
851
Location
Las Vegas
First Name
Nick
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
R10
Engine Size
350
Replace the gears with 3.73 or 4.10:1, minimum for a big improvement. Imho, 4.56:1 would be even better.
Yep, this - wanted him to confirm but if his final drive is really 3.07, hes going to be yanking out that trans to replace the 3-4 pack nearly as often as he does engine oil changes...I ran 4.56 in my K5, up from 3.73 and made a noticable difference with my 35s...
 

bucket

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Posts
30,445
Reaction score
28,347
Location
Usually not in Ohio
First Name
Andy
Truck Year
'77, '78, '79, '84, '88
Truck Model
K5 thru K30
Engine Size
350-454
Yep, this - wanted him to confirm but if his final drive is really 3.07, hes going to be yanking out that trans to replace the 3-4 pack nearly as often as he does engine oil changes...I ran 4.56 in my K5, up from 3.73 and made a noticable difference with my 35s...

Yeah, the 3.07 ratio was fairly common in the 70's K5's. My '77 is equipped that way, also with 33's. It is a very poor match even with a th350.
 

K5 Blazer

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2023
Posts
13
Reaction score
11
Location
Sant Cruz, CA
First Name
Holden
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
K5 Blazer
Engine Size
6.0L LS
The gear ratio is 3.07. Sounds like I will be getting a stock torque converter from the recommendations above. This Blazer has not been on the road for more than 30 years. I just want to get it running and down the road and then I can look at changing the gear ratio.

Thanks for all the input!
 

mibars

Full Access Member
Joined
May 13, 2023
Posts
268
Reaction score
442
Location
Nadarzyn, Poland
First Name
Michal
Truck Year
1990
Truck Model
Suburban V1500
Engine Size
350 TBI
Yep, this - wanted him to confirm but if his final drive is really 3.07, hes going to be yanking out that trans to replace the 3-4 pack nearly as often as he does engine oil changes...I ran 4.56 in my K5, up from 3.73 and made a noticable difference with my 35s...
I'd like to understand more about this issue of 3-4 clutch pack burning and excessive heat with tall gears.

Starting from heat what is actually happening when the transmission spins slowly while driving? Gears are engaged, so no clutch or band should slip, TCC should be locked, what is creating that extra heat? Is it TCC staying unlocked due to some reason? Or 3-4 gear hunting and associated clutch slippage?

And regarding that 3-4 clutch pack wear, what is causing this? Excessive 3-4 gear hunting?
 

NickTransmissions

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2023
Posts
412
Reaction score
851
Location
Las Vegas
First Name
Nick
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
R10
Engine Size
350
I'd like to understand more about this issue of 3-4 clutch pack burning and excessive heat with tall gears.

Starting from heat what is actually happening when the transmission spins slowly while driving? Gears are engaged, so no clutch or band should slip, TCC should be locked, what is creating that extra heat? Is it TCC staying unlocked due to some reason? Or 3-4 gear hunting and associated clutch slippage?

And regarding that 3-4 clutch pack wear, what is causing this? Excessive 3-4 gear hunting?
The powertrain has to work as one holistic system, where cam grind, converter stall, final drive ratio, transmission ratios, tire size and vehicle weight (along with intended application/use) must all be taken into account and phased in/matched so that the system functions optimally.

Excessively tall gears will stress all overdrive transmissions when in overdrive, it's not unique to the 700R4...the deeper the overdrive ratio, the more stress...the problem is lack of mechanical leverage to drive engine RPMS up sufficiently to keep line pressure/line rise at required levels in the transmission so that the overdrive clutch (in the case of the 700R4, 3-4 clutch in comb w/2-4 band). When the transmission is under-driving the engine, there's no issue as there's more than enough RPMs built rapidly to keep pressures sufficiently high to meet input torque-driven demand for pressure for the apply circuits.

For example a 2.73 final drive gear ratio is appropriately matched to a direct-drive transmission such as a TH350 or TH400 because the tallest gear in those units has a 1:1 ratio between engine speed and output speed. So when the driver accelerates in third gear, there's always enough line pressure/line pressure rise in the direct clutch apply circuit to handle accelerations while in third without the risk of slippage due to insufficient clamping force on the direct clutch.

Take that same vehicle, swap in a 700R4 and 2.73 (or 3.07 in the case of heavier vehicles) becomes dangerously too tall when in overdrive because for every one rotation of the output shaft, the engine is only making .69 rotations and the time it takes the engine to rotate once is insufficient because the final drive is too tall (ring/pinion not spinning fast enough). With taller gears the amount of time it takes to make those rotations is too slow to enable the TC/pump to spin fast enough to generate the required line pressure to feed the 3-4 clutch pack and 2-4 band apply circuits, especially upon acceleration in OD. So when the operator goes to accelerate, line pressure rise in the 3-4 clutch apply circuit is usually insufficient to maintain the required amount of clamping force on the 3-4 clutch and 4th apply servo piston to keep both holding. So each begins to slip, and slippage = rapid, runaway heat build up during the slippage episodes.

Change the ratio to something like 3.23, 3.42 or 3.73 (All factory ratios available w/the 700R4s and 4L60Es), the problem goes away because the rate of spin in terms of seconds per engine rotation drops (engine RPM rises faster) thus line pressure is built faster so there's much more volume-driven line pressure to feed the overdrive clutch hydraulic circuits, which meets demand and keeps the clutch pack (and band) applied firmly. To my knowledge, no 700R4 or 4L60E equipped vehicle came with a final drive of less than 3.07 or 3.08 and those with that tall ratio were passenger cars...F-bodies/Vettes had 3.23 or 3.42 while most half-ton trucks/suvs had 3.42 or 3.73 (Correct me if I'm wrong).

No TV cable adjustment or additional fluid volume (i.e. larger pans, etc), larger boost pressure valves, etc can solve this problem. The only way to cure it is to bring the final drive gear ratio back into 'phase' with the rest of the powertrain now that an overdrive transmission has been integrated.

The 3-4 pack is very vulnerable to begin with in the 700R4/4L60/65/70E Transmission family due to poor design coupled with too-small a feed orifice in the separator plate for the 2-3 feed and 2-3 exhaust as well as excessive clearance in the clutch pack from the factory. Too tall a final drive ratio puts it at even more risk.

Hope that helps - it's not the easiest concept to explain and I'm sure there's other folks out there who can do a much better, more succinct job that I can.
 

mibars

Full Access Member
Joined
May 13, 2023
Posts
268
Reaction score
442
Location
Nadarzyn, Poland
First Name
Michal
Truck Year
1990
Truck Model
Suburban V1500
Engine Size
350 TBI
That was a great writeup, thank you! What I didn't think about is that engine speed directly correlates to the amount of ATF pumped by transmission and if the amount is too low there may be less volume than needed to keep with the line pressure demand. Line pressure drops or does not rise fast enough, clutch slips, transmission generates heat and wears out.

I know that there are couple of pump designs in 700R4/4L60/4L60E/4L65E, would a pump that has more vanes or otherwise higher volume output allow lower RPM operation?
 

NickTransmissions

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2023
Posts
412
Reaction score
851
Location
Las Vegas
First Name
Nick
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
R10
Engine Size
350
That was a great writeup, thank you! What I didn't think about is that engine speed directly correlates to the amount of ATF pumped by transmission and if the amount is too low there may be less volume than needed to keep with the line pressure demand. Line pressure drops or does not rise fast enough, clutch slips, transmission generates heat and wears out.

I know that there are couple of pump designs in 700R4/4L60/4L60E/4L65E, would a pump that has more vanes or otherwise higher volume output allow lower RPM operation?
You're welcome!

Short answer to your question: Nope....There is only one fix for that problem...

Installing a .500 boost valve in a 700R4 might prolong life of the 3-4 pack but will only delay the inevitable by a few thousand miles or so...13 vane pumps were introduced to provide greater line pressure stability when shifting at higher RPMs and became especially important for the (then) new Gen3 small blocks that revved to the moon when compared to Gen1 and Gen2 (at least in terms of stock vs stock)...more vanes would further weaken the pump rotor (10 vane rotors are physically stronger owing to three less slots cut into them vs 13-vane rotors).

The biggest leap forward in pump design was the transition from a 7 vane pump to a 10 vane pump. While stronger, 7 vane pumps were not ideal for high-RPM usage and GM realized that in the mid-80s when they decided to switch to 10-vanes...you can retro a 10 vane rotor/slide/rotor guide, etc to any 700R4 that originally took a 7-vane pump. Between that, a .472 boost valve (or .500 boost valve from Sonnax), higher pressure PR spring, Transgo unbreakable pump ring kit, re-machining each pump half and grinding off the bottom land on the PR valve to give you line-to-lube at all times should position any 700R4 pump for success.

But none of that will compensate for insufficiently deep final drive ratio, unfortunately...
 

Matt69olds

Full Access Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Posts
2,451
Reaction score
3,819
Location
Central Indiana
First Name
Matt
Truck Year
81
Truck Model
GMC 1/2 ton
Engine Size
455 Olds
The 3-4 clutch has been a problem since day one with the 700.

The 1st family of 700 used only 5 clutches, combined with the really sloppy clutch clearance GM recommended and the puny orifice in the spacer plate just makes it worse.

HydraMatic made some improvements with the later 700 with the addition of a 6th clutch and some hydraulic changes.

They went one step better with the 4L65E, it has an additional clutch for a total of 7. You can get aftermarket clutch kits, the downside is to fit more clutch plates in a fix area, the friction and steels have to be thinner. The raybestos Z pak is probably the best known. I use them on really stout builds, but because they are thinner they don’t like heat. They tend to warp, especially on something that really gets abused.

Bigger tires are naturally heavier, even without the loss of final drive ratio it’s much harder to get big heavy tires moving, and to keep them going

One other contributing factor to gearing too high/tall tires is throttle position. A truck with 3.08 gears and tall tires is basically idling on the highway. Since line pressure is influenced by throttle position, at low engine speed pressure will naturally be lower than ideal. If the truck is set up to need a little more throttle to maintain the same speed, the transmission load will be lower, with an increase in clamping force.

To make a long story short: the truck needs to be regeared to be at least equal the final drive before the bigger tires. Since most of tgese trucks have girlie man 2.73 or 3.08 gears, it’s even more important. The truck will perform and drive much better with the mechanical advantage of gearing.
 

Camar068

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Posts
4,293
Reaction score
3,339
Location
Kentucky
First Name
David
Truck Year
1986
Truck Model
K10/LM7 5.3/4L60e/np208/3.73/32"
Engine Size
10 yrs Air Force
Replace the gears with 3.73 or 4.10:1, minimum for a big improvement. Imho, 4.56:1 would be even better.
highly recommend. I went from 3.08 to 3.73 and still regret not going 4.10. do that before you do the torque convertor. Until then, leave it in 3rd gear.
 

K5 Blazer

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2023
Posts
13
Reaction score
11
Location
Sant Cruz, CA
First Name
Holden
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
K5 Blazer
Engine Size
6.0L LS
Thanks for all the great advice! Looking to purchase an oem torque converter. I feel like I am purchasing such an unknown and haven't found one online that does not have a bunch of bad reviews. Does anyone have a recommendation on purchasing an oem Torque converter for my set-up stated above?

Thank you!
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
44,167
Posts
950,740
Members
36,282
Latest member
Doug Hampton
Top