spark plugs.... Over thinking!

[SirRobyn0]

@yepyep & @AuroraGirl I think you guys are both right. It is simple, but complex in the way fuel, air and ignition work and how that can after spark plugs ect. Heat ranges are simple, but how or why a plug appears to hot or cold can be complex.

Taylor, I'd like to make a comment on your point about antiseize on spark plug threads. I know antiseize is the gold standard for what to put on spark plug threads, but I'm telling you I've seen where the antiseize turns into darn near a solid on the threads making removal difficult. I think it's all the heat cycles, or maybe it only happens on a cylinder that leaks a tiny bit of compression past the plug IDK, what causes it, I just know the end result, no it's never as bad as a stuck plug, it's just a slow pain to get out. So I've been using dielectric grease on spark plug threads and it has worked out really well for me. It's high heat, thick and stays on the threads between changes. Try it once and you won't go back. If you or anyone else is really set on using antiseize at least use the high heat copper based stuff.

 

[AuroraGirl]

@yepyep & @AuroraGirl I think you guys are both right. It is simple, but complex in the way fuel, air and ignition work and how that can after spark plugs ect. Heat ranges are simple, but how or why a plug appears to hot or cold can be complex.

Taylor, I'd like to make a comment on your point about antiseize on spark plug threads. I know antiseize is the gold standard for what to put on spark plug threads, but I'm telling you I've seen where the antiseize turns into darn near a solid on the threads making removal difficult. I think it's all the heat cycles, or maybe it only happens on a cylinder that leaks a tiny bit of compression past the plug IDK, what causes it, I just know the end result, no it's never as bad as a stuck plug, it's just a slow pain to get out. So I've been using dielectric grease on spark plug threads and it has worked out really well for me. It's high heat, thick and stays on the threads between changes. Try it once and you won't go back. If you or anyone else is really set on using antiseize at least use the high heat copper based stuff.

Ill probably try this on the next set going in my f150. I need to chase the threads on like 3 cylinders and the autolites are... disappointing. Ive had 2 fail lol. Well, get to where they were outside of normal design from nothing special on the truck or my end. But Once I get those threads good and straight, Ill want to keep whats going in from sticking.

 

[Grit dog]

Ill probably try this on the next set going in my f150. I need to chase the threads on like 3 cylinders and the autolites are... disappointing. Ive had 2 fail lol. Well, get to where they were outside of normal design from nothing special on the truck or my end. But Once I get those threads good and straight, Ill want to keep whats going in from sticking.

So you’re saying you have 3 cross threaded spark plugs in it? You don’t need dielectric grease, you need some prayers and heli coils!
How does this even happen? Or is this just AG speculation?

PS one thing I’ve never used any grease or anti seize on spark plugs. Until the notorious 4.6 Triton Fords and that is not for the threads per se but the shank portion that freezes in.
Have yet to remove one of the 4.6 plugs (and probably never will) but used copper hi temp.

 

[SirRobyn0]

Ill probably try this on the next set going in my f150. I need to chase the threads on like 3 cylinders and the autolites are... disappointing. Ive had 2 fail lol. Well, get to where they were outside of normal design from nothing special on the truck or my end. But Once I get those threads good and straight, Ill want to keep whats going in from sticking.

So you’re saying you have 3 cross threaded spark plugs in it? You don’t need dielectric grease, you need some prayers and heli coils!
How does this even happen? Or is this just AG speculation?

PS one thing I’ve never used any grease or anti seize on spark plugs. Until the notorious 4.6 Triton Fords and that is not for the threads per se but the shank portion that freezes in.
Have yet to remove one of the 4.6 plugs (and probably never will) but used copper hi temp.

I think she's saying 3 threads are rough not cross threaded....

Don't even talk to me about the 4.6...... Horrible motor from a repair stand point IMO. I cannot tell you the number of times I've had to extract those stupid plugs on customer vehicles.

Taylor, use another brand of plug. NGK maybe? in your Ford, probably be what I'd do.

 

[AuroraGirl]

I think she's saying 3 threads are rough not cross threaded....

Don't even talk to me about the 4.6...... Horrible motor from a repair stand point IMO. I cannot tell you the number of times I've had to extract those stupid plugs on customer vehicles.

Taylor, use another brand of plug. NGK maybe? in your Ford, probably be what I'd do.

I picked up NGK. And yes, rough threads, its difficult to thread one in and I used a torque wrench to put them in and you could see the rear 2 clearly werent all the way in, which makes me think the threads could use some chasing since if there was rust or something they probably either crammed into them and just resist turning or it could have marred them. Either way the spark plug chasing tool I bought at the auto store should help I think. Just reaching 5 and 6 is annoying.

And Im sorry that "AG Speculation" is annoying to you but Im fully capable of comparing a spark plug to a new one(2 boxes of 4 and I have a 6 cylinder) and the electrode most certainly doesnt stick so far out of a new plug. Im also capable of identifying what appeared to be a carbon track. Maybe it was a crack. Either way cylinder wasnt contributing under load very well.

Im sorry I bothered you. (grit not you robyn)

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This is the first set of plugs I pulled out of it like 4-5 years ago (damn time flies) but at that time the truck still ran lean rather often. Some vacuum leaks, IAC, throttle, MAF, etc contributed. But the point of showing it is the rust. I dont know if the truck came with thse from factory or if they were put in sometime between 97 to 16. (108k miles) but cast iron anchor and steel threaded into it, is what Makes me think rust. If Im wrong then it wouldnt be the first time and certainly isnt surprising given how wrong ive been about things that matter, and I Dont consider this to be anywhere near that. Maybe thats where I fail too...

 

[SirRobyn0]

I picked up NGK. And yes, rough threads, its difficult to thread one in and I used a torque wrench to put them in and you could see the rear 2 clearly werent all the way in, which makes me think the threads could use some chasing since if there was rust or something they probably either crammed into them and just resist turning or it could have marred them. Either way the spark plug chasing tool I bought at the auto store should help I think. Just reaching 5 and 6 is annoying.

And Im sorry that "AG Speculation" is annoying to you but Im fully capable of comparing a spark plug to a new one(2 boxes of 4 and I have a 6 cylinder) and the electrode most certainly doesnt stick so far out of a new plug. Im also capable of identifying what appeared to be a carbon track. Maybe it was a crack. Either way cylinder wasnt contributing under load very well.

Im sorry I bothered you. (grit not you robyn)

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This is the first set of plugs I pulled out of it like 4-5 years ago (damn time flies) but at that time the truck still ran lean rather often. Some vacuum leaks, IAC, throttle, MAF, etc contributed. But the point of showing it is the rust. I dont know if the truck came with thse from factory or if they were put in sometime between 97 to 16. (108k miles) but cast iron anchor and steel threaded into it, is what Makes me think rust. If Im wrong then it wouldnt be the first time and certainly isnt surprising given how wrong ive been about things that matter, and I Dont consider this to be anywhere near that. Maybe thats where I fail too...

As you know Bosch plugs would not be factory. One thing that can happen is if a plug doesn't seal fully, for whatever reason, can be dirt on the seat or not tightened properly, a little bit of compression seeps by and along with that carbon, and until the thread is chased they will be problematic. As I'm sure you know it is pretty hard to cross thread a cast iron head, because the plug is softer it's usually the plug that takes the damage, where as with an aluminum head it's the other way around.

 

[AuroraGirl]

As you know Bosch plugs would not be factory. One thing that can happen is if a plug doesn't seal fully, for whatever reason, can be dirt on the seat or not tightened properly, a little bit of compression seeps by and along with that carbon, and until the thread is chased they will be problematic. As I'm sure you know it is pretty hard to cross thread a cast iron head, because the plug is softer it's usually the plug that takes the damage, where as with an aluminum head it's the other way around.

Yes I figured this was the case too because Ive had aluminum head engines and cast iron Ive also had a 2001 4.6

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The plugs and coils (what remains) are in a ice cream pale in my shed. Almost every coil fell apart, all the plugs were past due with one cylinder not always firing.

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but in my 3800, Ive accidently started a plug incorrectly and then I just ruined the threads on the plug lol. I fixed it with a tap set since it was only the beginning, then put it on the front so it was easier to get if it was ending up to be a poor-mans loctite situation instead of the back. still there. those are iridium plugs and the plating on the threads is sacrificial I think.

 

[AuroraGirl]

As you know Bosch plugs would not be factory. One thing that can happen is if a plug doesn't seal fully, for whatever reason, can be dirt on the seat or not tightened properly, a little bit of compression seeps by and along with that carbon, and until the thread is chased they will be problematic. As I'm sure you know it is pretty hard to cross thread a cast iron head, because the plug is softer it's usually the plug that takes the damage, where as with an aluminum head it's the other way around.

Actually I wasnt sure if bosch would be factory or not. I know ford used autolite for years but they were forced to sell it in 1972(I looked up the year lol I dont randomly know that) And that bosch is oem for a lot of stuffs from big manufactures like ABS, alternators, injectors. I dont know if it was like how GM uses NGK plugs from the late 90s at least, where you could get GM PN on the plugs or sometimes just a full on NGK number. Ive pulled only GM pn off cars from then but the ngk is also on them but not the logo.

I assume they would use motorcraft but what are motorcraft if not

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this is not a 1 to 1 comparison but The only brand I have noticed the colored ribs in porcelain is bosch and motorcraft but thats not very scientific. motorcraft WAS made by autolite for a long time, bbut they were bought in 2011(autolite) and I couldnt find anything as of late from them. they look different when compared to the same model for my 4.9. who knows lol

 

[SirRobyn0]

Actually I wasnt sure if bosch would be factory or not. I know ford used autolite for years but they were forced to sell it in 1972(I looked up the year lol I dont randomly know that) And that bosch is oem for a lot of stuffs from big manufactures like ABS, alternators, injectors. I dont know if it was like how GM uses NGK plugs from the late 90s at least, where you could get GM PN on the plugs or sometimes just a full on NGK number. Ive pulled only GM pn off cars from then but the ngk is also on them but not the logo.

I assume they would use motorcraft but what are motorcraft if not

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this is not a 1 to 1 comparison but The only brand I have noticed the colored ribs in porcelain is bosch and motorcraft but thats not very scientific. motorcraft WAS made by autolite for a long time, bbut they were bought in 2011(autolite) and I couldnt find anything as of late from them. they look different when compared to the same model for my 4.9. who knows lol

IDK, if someone other than autolite is making motorcraft plugs. One thing is OEM plugs have a small dot of paint on the tip of the metal where the plug wire attaches. I've never pulled an OEM plug out of a Ford that wasn't motorcraft branded, but of course I only see a tiny fraction of them compared to the number produced.

Ok I just looked it up, according to Honeywell, Autolite still produces plugs for Ford motor company, so I'd assume that's relatively current.

 

[SirRobyn0]

So I've got the this thread going and an ESC thread going and sometimes it's hard for me to decide where to post what so I'll probably throw this into both threads since it crosses over, but the main reason I'm putting it here to is because I discovered something about the non-fouler today. I'm going to do a quick recap because some of this info is not in this thread.

So last weekend I installed the non-fouler. I drove it to work on Monday, installed the regular HEI distributor in an attempt to get away from the ESC system. Drove it to the farm Monday and had to pull over disconnect the vac advance and twist the distributor to retard it to get it to stop pinging. Tuesday morning on the way into work I had a severe ping fest on a hill with no where to pull off. I tried to baby it, but it was pinging BAD. Tuesday at work I pulled the standard HEI distributor and reinstalled the old ESC distributor because even though the ESC isn't currently working, as long as I leave the vac advance disconnected it doesn't ping. Well since then it's been pinging mildly, under certain conditions, moderately under just the right conditions. Also discovered my EGR passage in the intake manifold is clogged.

So today I did some good work and made some progress. This morning I attempted to clear the EGR passages by cleaning what I could and blowing air though the passage with the intake still on the truck. This was unsuccessful, I did not have time to pull plugs, run a comp test or try to get the knock sensor out of the block before I had to go into town. As expected it pinged just like it did yesterday.

So next weekend I have to tow my big trailer about 100 miles. I need to plan for that. I either need the truck back where it was before I started "fixing it" or better yet actually better, or I need to decide to tow it with the Jeep which I have towed that trailer with the Jeep locally I'd have to take back roads as I do not trust it's stability with that trailer at highways speeds. So this afternoon I had things to do on the farm, but I decided to take a little bit of time and do a little more with the truck.

So I pulled all the plugs and ran a compression test. One of my concerns was the severe ping on that hill, and I wanted to see if there was an sign of piston material melted into any of the plugs. Well no, no signs of that and the compression test which the result was very good, all cylinders very even and well within 10% of each other, with the one using oil #7 being just a tiny bit higher than the rest. So basically she's healthy in that respect. I put 7 of the CR43TS plugs back in and one R45TS in #7 the one that has had oil fouling issues. Did NOT put the non-fouler thing back in.

Just when I was finishing with that, I got a call and had to take the truck into town again. Guess what. Idle is back to super smooth and the new pinging issue is gone. I still get a lot of ping if I hook the vac can up, so I still need to fix the plugged EGR passages, and knock sensor, but I'm back to where I was before at least. And I'm happy to have gotten back to that at least.

I don't regret having tried the non-fouler, and that spark plug did look nice and clean, but for me it had side effects that were not acceptable (rough idle and somehow caused pinging). So that's that. It was worth a try.

Moving forward as far as the spark plug and oil fouling of #7 I am going to try to manage it by simply by running a slightly hotter plug in that hole. Also I'm going to keep to posting only spark plug stuff in this thread, and anything on the EGR, ping and ESC in the ESC thread, it's just that so much in this post ties together with that. ESC thread is here: https://www.gmsquarebody.com/thread...-knows-more-about-esc-system-than-i-do.33216/

 

[AuroraGirl]

IDK, if someone other than autolite is making motorcraft plugs. One thing is OEM plugs have a small dot of paint on the tip of the metal where the plug wire attaches. I've never pulled an OEM plug out of a Ford that wasn't motorcraft branded, but of course I only see a tiny fraction of them compared to the number produced.

Ok I just looked it up, according to Honeywell, Autolite still produces plugs for Ford motor company, so I'd assume that's relatively current.

well im pretty sure honeywell sold its right of autolite but I read that the sale was more or less a corporate reorganization based on industry and nothing was changed name wise and that tells me its probably about tax dodging with little change to meaningful ownership but who knows. all these big companies play wack a mole with owners and sorta trade eachother like a friend group who have 0 respect for eachother and STDs

 

[bucket]

That's crazy about the non-fouler. I wonder how the heck it causes the ping?

I once read about someone that had bought an 80's 454 truck that ran reasonably well and when they went to do a basic tune-up, they found that all 8 cylinders were running a non-fouler. Lol.

 

[AuroraGirl]

That's crazy about the non-fouler. I wonder how the heck it causes the ping?

I once read about someone that had bought an 80's 454 truck that ran reasonably well and when they went to do a basic tune-up, they found that all 8 cylinders were running a non-fouler. Lol.

My only thought would be that spacing it far away is not allowing it to transfer heat, but the fouler being threaded around it and metal Id assume would transfer heat enough but I dont know how important or the shape/size of that is to the heat part. and his egr maybe not working means hotter temps all around and its enough to push it over the edge since the engine was meant to be spicier spark advance with the fancy electronic spark retard(TM) system to keep it happy lol

 

[SirRobyn0]

That's crazy about the non-fouler. I wonder how the heck it causes the ping?

I once read about someone that had bought an 80's 454 truck that ran reasonably well and when they went to do a basic tune-up, they found that all 8 cylinders were running a non-fouler. Lol.

My only thought would be that spacing it far away is not allowing it to transfer heat, but the fouler being threaded around it and metal Id assume would transfer heat enough but I dont know how important or the shape/size of that is to the heat part. and his egr maybe not working means hotter temps all around and its enough to push it over the edge since the engine was meant to be spicier spark advance with the fancy electronic spark retard(TM) system to keep it happy lol

@bucket I agree crazy, that's what I thought, and how? So what I didn't say is that the non-fouler had some black residue. It wasn't caked with it, but it's not like it was getting hot or anything, or at least it didn't appear to have been. I have no idea it honestly makes no sense to me, but the difference was obvious. We all know the 305 is odd duck and seems to react differently to timing than any of the other GM engines so there is that. @AuroraGirl I'm sure a working EGR would have made a difference, but if my EGR was working the vac advance would be hooked up so who knows.

I didn't throw the non-fouler away, so once I get the EGR and ESC worked out I may try it again, but part of that might depend on how a slightly hotter plug in the hole works out too.

 

[SirRobyn0]

I have another little thing sloshing around my pea brain.

So I got to thinking about what @AuroraGirl was saying about could that cylinder be receiving a weak spark, still strong enough to fire under normal conditions but not strong enough to burn off the deposits. So I'm not quite due for cap, rotor and wires, but when ahead did the full tune today. Cap, rotor, wires, fuel filter, PCV valve, ect. Also changed the module since mine was still the OEM unit, which is now in my glove box. So less things to worry about. I opted for brass terminal cap instead of aluminum, brass being the better choice. Anyhow I started another thread on my plug wire choice so I won't get into that here.

But I was just doing some reading so ya'll might remember I switched the truck over to Diesel oil a while ago. I'd have to look, I think I just changed it for the second time with 15W40, I was just reading an article that states the additives for diesel approval, are really terrible for fouling out spark plugs in a gas motor that burns a little. I just can't get my head around how a engine that burns as little as this one does could possibly be fouling plugs. Might have an answer right there.

So I'll run it a couple days and see what that plug looks like. If it doesn't look good, I'll go back to 10W30, with 1/2 QT hyper lube in there as I had done before I switched to 15W40. What are your thoughts. Am I on to something or full of you know what, I say it that way because the word would be censored.