Multiple Battery types and the danger of diode damage with modern batteries mixed with Lead Acid and OEM alternators.

[RanchWelder]

Bought a Power-Master 3 years ago because of charging adjust-ability, L/A vs AGM vs Lithium.
Had no idea what was going to be removed from the shelves because of EPA or lack of manufacturing.

PM is rated at 200 amps.
Never thought the idle voltage was a concern, TBH.
Can see how it matters.
Dim lights, having to throttle up to close the rear windows, even using relays on windows and headlamps?

Generating that extra voltage at idle must increase the heat under the hood at idle too?



From what I have read the Lithium is a poor investment and AGM, (although better reviews for the old school red tops that lasted 10 years or more), either one will fail prematurely without the proper "tuning or adjustment" of the alternator output voltage. (Like the PowerMaster offers, 13.8, 14.6, 14.9 and at different trickle rates, etc). Does this alternator adjust for Lead Acid and at least AGM?

Lithium seems to have issues, if not managed and cotrolled properly?
Not sure. Never owned one.
Highly doubt any old school alternator is designed to protect a Lithium cell.

Read they have a BMS (Battery Management System) stabilizer safety disconnect board that freaks out when it breaks loose from the alternator during charging and the alternator diodes can see 100 volts for a millisecond? Smoked alternator does not sound like a goood idea?

Lot's of sailing videos where they lost the alternator at sea because they were charging LifP04 or Lithium and stuff messed up the alternator diodes?

Many sailors recommend to never connect your solar cells to any standard controller and integrate the Alternator, for this reason. Mixing Lead Acid dual battery with an AGM or lithium, without a select-able alternator voltage such as the PowerMaster 200 amp offers, still requires you switch the alternator settings for each different type of cell, or you'll kill the one you're not switched for. Mix and match is a bad thing.

Here's a link to a load manager that protects the diodes in a mixed charging environment and when using different cells such as in a camper or when tied to a solar or wind generation scenario, with or without an alternator in the loop:
https://www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms/buy

I'm looking at the older model that does not have Bluetooth, if my camper requires the better quality LifPo4 batteries, instead of stoopid heavy deep cell golf cart batteries or the deep cells that cost $250 and die every 2 years, with low re-charge life span count.

The LifP04 might require charging if it's overcast for a week and until I can afford solar cells, for the few days we get full sunny days?

It's cloudy here a lot.

Waiting for the cells to recharge everything while living off the grid might be better to protect the battery brain and alternator investing in a $500 charging controller (see the link) vs spending $500 on questionable quality solar cells, as recommended without an alternator and set up as a stand alone solar LifP04 system?

Don't get me wrong, stand alone solar to LiFp04 sounds safe and is used by millions.
Burning fuel to recharge the batteries off the alternator might save the week on quite a few weeks, without a power pole to recharge for miles?

What do you guys think of the

BankManager™ Gen2? for an off grid multi battery system?​

See the above link for the installation and owner's manual...

What works for you and your Sailboat, RV or Motor-home?

What do you avoid at all cost? (Brand names, system controllers, bad quality cells... etc?)

What would you like to own to upgrade your system for off-grid battery and charging /controllers?

 

[Ricko1966]

My setup was stupid simple,and cheap I thought. I was forced to live off grid for 7 months 1 year( long story). My setup was 3 group 27 deep cycles, a GM 12 SI alternator spun by a Honda 5hp Horizontal shaft.The battery bank,powered an Inverter wired into my main panel. Couldn't run the A/C,stove,water heater or dryer. Used to fire it up in the morning, to top up the batteries and again in the evening. I've put up pics before,will try to find them and put them back up. The inverter did have a low voltage alarm so I knew if I needed to top up the batteries. I always though it would have been cool to use an electric start horizontal shaft motor,so it could have been push button start from the kitchen or something,but this was made with junk I had laying around. Started with 1 group 27 and just started adding more as I thought I needed. It was cool though just walk in the house turnnon the lights,TV etc. just like normal.

 

[fast 99]

I was told by a GM rep that Delco wet batteries were designed to take the higher charging voltage of the 90's up trucks. Don't know if that was true or a sales pitch but we got decent service from them given the severe use. Dual batteries lasted about 2 years, alternators 3-5 years.

 

[RanchWelder]

Cool rig.

 

[Old Guy Bill]

A large segment of the RV world has fully embraced the lithium batteries and all the various challenges of “Boondocking” AKA as off grid. Many have several batteries, inverter and multiple solar panels.
The few guys I know doing it have a generator as a back up, either gas or propane powered, the sun just doesn’t always cooperate.
The trucks charging system just doesn’t deliver enough amperage on the factory connection/setup to efficiently charge the big systems while driving.
A DC to DC charger comes in various amperage ratings and will charge those systems much more effectively, and isolates the alternator from the lithium batteries.

 

[RanchWelder]

The DC to DC chargers that take a stock alternator and amplify the charge voltage seem like snake oil to my mind. They lose efficiency and create enormous heat to "RAISE" the amperage.
Usually in a small box that could start a fire for a lot of money, made by the cheapest parts.

Read good things about the Victron. They offer 110v chargers and charge and distribution managers.

The link I posted above for the Bank Manger is totally different than a charger.

Here's the .pdf, for those interested that did not find the manual.
(This is the older and more affordable model):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p1AB62fGNc9u9WLbRk_xn18RYwnY1UQl/view

The way this works is by using an amp probe on the charge circuit to the battery bank and a high speed sensor to prevent the battery from triggering the voltage overload of the alternator, BEFORE it happens.

Kinda trick. Really intelligent guy who built a one off controller for the Marine world.
My impression is; if you leave people stranded in the ocean with poor engineering, the word would get out right?

I can see how ruining three or four $300 batteries just once, might make this investment well worth it?

His instructional video is impressive. He names an electrical scientist who assisted him with the design.
Anyone with a wide knowledge of battery systems, please chime in after reading this explanation and manual?

All your advice is great!

If you have time, please take a closer look at what he designed so we can discuss what might work or fail?

What features of this small device do you find useful?

He says this works for several types of cells at once, with the correct charging voltage and rate from various chargings systems.

He does not recommend floating anything.

 

[Old Guy Bill]

The Victron is the unit I’ve seen installed in a friends rig, 50 amp I believe.
One thing to mention though is he’s using it with a big diesel pickup with dual batteries and I’m sure a substantial alternator.

 

[Camar068]

Bought a Power-Master 3 years ago because of charging adjust-ability, L/A vs AGM vs Lithium.
Had no idea what was going to be removed from the shelves because of EPA or lack of manufacturing.

PM is rated at 200 amps.
Never thought the idle voltage was a concern, TBH.
Can see how it matters.
Dim lights, having to throttle up to close the rear windows, even using relays on windows and headlamps?

Generating that extra voltage at idle must increase the heat under the hood at idle too?



From what I have read the Lithium is a poor investment and AGM, (although better reviews for the old school red tops that lasted 10 years or more), either one will fail prematurely without the proper "tuning or adjustment" of the alternator output voltage. (Like the PowerMaster offers, 13.8, 14.6, 14.9 and at different trickle rates, etc). Does this alternator adjust for Lead Acid and at least AGM?

Lithium seems to have issues, if not managed and cotrolled properly?
Not sure. Never owned one.
Highly doubt any old school alternator is designed to protect a Lithium cell.

Read they have a BMS (Battery Management System) stabilizer safety disconnect board that freaks out when it breaks loose from the alternator during charging and the alternator diodes can see 100 volts for a millisecond? Smoked alternator does not sound like a goood idea?

Lot's of sailing videos where they lost the alternator at sea because they were charging LifP04 or Lithium and stuff messed up the alternator diodes?

Many sailors recommend to never connect your solar cells to any standard controller and integrate the Alternator, for this reason. Mixing Lead Acid dual battery with an AGM or lithium, without a select-able alternator voltage such as the PowerMaster 200 amp offers, still requires you switch the alternator settings for each different type of cell, or you'll kill the one you're not switched for. Mix and match is a bad thing.

Here's a link to a load manager that protects the diodes in a mixed charging environment and when using different cells such as in a camper or when tied to a solar or wind generation scenario, with or without an alternator in the loop:
https://www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms/buy

I'm looking at the older model that does not have Bluetooth, if my camper requires the better quality LifPo4 batteries, instead of stoopid heavy deep cell golf cart batteries or the deep cells that cost $250 and die every 2 years, with low re-charge life span count.

The LifP04 might require charging if it's overcast for a week and until I can afford solar cells, for the few days we get full sunny days?

It's cloudy here a lot.

Waiting for the cells to recharge everything while living off the grid might be better to protect the battery brain and alternator investing in a $500 charging controller (see the link) vs spending $500 on questionable quality solar cells, as recommended without an alternator and set up as a stand alone solar LifP04 system?

Don't get me wrong, stand alone solar to LiFp04 sounds safe and is used by millions.
Burning fuel to recharge the batteries off the alternator might save the week on quite a few weeks, without a power pole to recharge for miles?

What do you guys think of the

BankManager™ Gen2? for an off grid multi battery system?​

See the above link for the installation and owner's manual...

What works for you and your Sailboat, RV or Motor-home?

What do you avoid at all cost? (Brand names, system controllers, bad quality cells... etc?)

What would you like to own to upgrade your system for off-grid battery and charging /controllers?

Something similar crossed my mind in the past few weeks. Most lead acid chargers charge at ~13.5, while AGM charge at ~14.5.

Years back I ordered an AGM charger from Batteryminder thinking more was better. Learning more through the years, I called them and asked them about my charger on a lead acid. They said don't let it charge more that 24 hours on a lead acid (off record unless the battery is toast and nothing to lose.

I charged a lead acid shortly after that, and noticed that you could watch the voltage drop from over 14V to ~12.5V within minutes. That has nabbed at me since.

It took charging/desufating an 8 yr old battery for a week and it started the truck fine (didn't risk leaving it....just a test). So I thought....be careful with your chargers because of the voltage difference.

The last few weeks I've been wondering the same thing about alternators on vehicles.

Glad you brought it up.

 

[Camar068]

sorry for multiple edits if your reading immediately lol

 

[RanchWelder]

Have heard many people claim to leave the Batteryminder on all the time on stored vehicles and thought that was wrong info. The Shumacher $70 version I have had success with for a few years, has L/A and AGM mode and turns off as a minder after full charge. It has run flawlessly sitting under the hood in -40 weather keeping my battery just warm enough not to freeze. Wanted to change it because some said the brand was poor quality, hoever even after getting snow under the edges of the hood a few times, it just works.

Been researching LiFEPO4 and converters today.
(Solar cells and a 40A - 60A charge controller down the road?)

Sounds like the LOW Frequency Inverters are $680-$990 for 12v for a reason, to protect from in-rush currents over the high voltage versions people use and have mixed reviews over. Just not within my price range.

Like the idea of conditioned power for my devices to run/charge on.
Hoping to run my Mac Studio and a small monitor off the converter and a pair of batteries, when I want to watch the large-er screen at night, while camping.

Considering 2 @ 12v group 31 LiFEPO4 batteries, (in case 1 drops out) and so I can get 24v, when upgraded.
1 good quality Inverter with expansion.
*** 1 LiFEPO4 charger, if it will run off backup generator power without burning up?***

Starts to get confusing as to what will and won't work.

Might have to build a disconnect switch, so my 12v Lithium batteries can be isolated from the truck batteries and my alternator adjusted to charge the Lithium exclusively off the alternator, when required.
Then carefully switch back to the truck system for normal use.
***No A/C charger whatsoever?***

The 200 amp alternator should be fairly quick to charge a pair of 12v Lithium's, over the generator, through the inverter, considering the generator is dirty A/C instead of clean-er DC alternated current?



My generator's are both the old school Coleman Green units that were sold for campers in the 90's.
Both run and generate great, however might not be good to use them for charging my Kita tools or running
A/C for my phone charger or the computer without fear of destroying the devices.
Great for power tools, drills, saws, lights. Not so good for electronics.

Concerned most modern electrical devices cannot handle the dirty A/C power my 2 genny's can produce?

Might not even be worth risking it, even as emergency power for the Schumacher, if my truck battery gets low in the field? Carrying the boat anchor gas generator sounds more and more like a waste of time, if it would not even run the Schumacher charger without breaking it? IDK?

Will my generator ruin my Schumacher?
Will it ruin a LiFEPO4 charger off genny? IDK


What do you guys think?

 

[Ricko1966]

Have heard many people cliam to leave the Batteryminder on all the time on stored vehicles and thought that was wrong info. The Shumacher $70 version I have had sucess with for a few years, has L/A and AGM mode and turns off as a minder after full charge. It has run flawlessly sitting under the hood in -40 weather keeping my battery just warm enough not to freeze. Wanted to change it because soem said the brand was poor quality, hoever even after getting snow under the endges of thehood a few times, it just works.

Been researching LiFEPO4 and converters today.

Sounds like the LOW Frequency Inverters are $680 for 12v for a reason, to protect from in-rush currents over the high voltage versions people use and have mixed reviews over. Just not within my price range.

Like the idea of conditioned power for my devices to run/charge on.

Considering 2 @ 12v group 31 batteries, (in case 1 drops out) and so I can get 24v, when upgraded.
1 good quality Inverter with expansion.
1 LiFEPO4 charger, if it will run off backup generator power without burning up?

Starts to get confusing as to what will and won't work.

Might have to build a switch, so my 12v Lithium batteries can be isolated from the truck batteries and my alternator adjusted to charge the Lithium exclusively off the alternator, when required.

The 200 amp alternator should be fairly quick to charge a pair of 12v Lithiums, over the generator, through the inverter, considering the generator is dirty A/C instead of clean-er DC alternated current?



My generator's are both the old school Coleman Green units that were sold for campers in the 90's.
Both run and generate great, however I cannot use them for charging my tools or running A/C for my phone charger or the computer without fear of destroying the devices.
Great for power tools, drills, saws, lights.
Concerned most modern electrical devices cannot handle the dirty A/C power my 2 genny's can produce?

Might not even be worth risking it, except as emergency power for the schumacher, if my truck battery gets low in the field? Carrying the boat anchor gas generator sounds more and more like a waste of time?

Will my generator ruin my Schumacher?
It runs great off houshold A/C. What happens off a generator without a power conditioner?

What do you guys think?

Buy a UPS (uninterrupted power supply) run it off your generator and run your 120volt stuff off the UPS it will clean up the signal. Now just buy coincidence I have a few generators and a schumacher battery charger,mine is old,no leds, I used before I built the battery/alternator/Honda engine rig. I used the generator to the battery charger to my deep cycle,with out issues. But the Honda engine spinning the 12SI was just more efficient.

 

[1lejohn]

Buy a UPS (uninterrupted power supply) run it off your generator and run your 120volt stuff off the UPS it will clean up the signal. Now just buy coincidence I have a few generators and a schumacher battery charger,mine is old,no leds, I used before I built the battery/alternator/Honda engine rig. I used the generator to the battery charger to my deep cycle,with out issues. But the Honda engine spinning the 12SI was just more efficient.

For the win.

 

[Grit dog]

@RanchWelder maybe I’m the only one confused what you’re trying to accomplish or what you are using the batteries for.
Aside from the one question “What works in your boat or motorhome?” anyways.
In general, idk why one would use Lifepo4 in a vehicle. For multiple reasons.
If you want combo starting/deep cycle and can charge off of your charger, alternator or solar quality AGM 12V batteries are the best bet. If you’re after deep cycle efficiency/longevity and no heavy draws like a start battery, 6V SLA or AGM is where I’d be going. Wouldn’t spend the $$$$ on LiFEpo4 for this unless weight was a concern and/or you’re building your own cells (much cheaper).

 

[RanchWelder]

Private email sent Grit dog.

Moving into an RV, IF the transmission no-reverse issue can be fixed.
No money for a low freq inverter, which is what I would want.

No money for solar cells until next Spring, at the earliest.
No where to move where it's warm, that I know of.
No knowledge regarding RV AGM vs LiFPO
No idea if my old school generator(s) will be allowed where ever I camp on Federal or state lands, because they might not have spark arrestors.

No friends to borrow a power cord to charge anything.

My Powermaster alternator is NOT designed for LiFPO.
It is designed for AGM and Automotive Lithium, which I do not own either at this stage.

I'm running a $300 lead acid Platinum cell from Orieleys in the truck.
I have no isolator yet, for dual batteries. and my truck has been wired with 2 @ 4 AWG wires to a 175A fuse to the driver's side, where another lead or AGM will evenrually live.

Perhapse buying 2 deep cycle agm battereies would be best so my engine can charge my RV batteries via the power port in the trailer wiring harness?

I just added a number 6 AWG blue brake controller wire and a number 8 awg power wire from my rear buss bar to the trailer connector 2 days ago.
The rear buss bar is 175A fused to the unit on my firewall in the picture on my sig.

The brake controller just needs to be added to the brake switch to work.

Just found a Demco 14" slider for sale on Craigslist Helena last week.
$2900 in 5th wheel and X-Rails for a very good deal.

I'm hoping to fix reverse and mount the hitch over my 3/4 ton rear 14-B and drive away in a 1992 RV with most everything supposedly working at the end of the month.

No idea where to go, or if the propane heater in the only real option for an RV anywhere in town, will even keep me alive through a MT winter, IF I can even find a place to park and plug in.

 

[Grit dog]

@RanchWelder
Well that makes no sense since a complete NEW Demco slider hitch with rails goes for less than half of that much $. Or 3/4 as much for the largest capacity models.