Is a 2wd 4L60E worth the trouble?

[HotRodPC]

Got news for you Papa Wheelie. The 700r4 has more problems than the 4L60-E. The #1 problem with the 700r4/4L60-E is the Sunshell breaking. #2 Problem is the 3-4 clutch pack burning up in both the 700r4 and 4L60-E. The 4L60-E has more fixes in it than the 700r4 does.

Buddy, sounds like you're frustrated as hell over your van and 3 transmisisons in less than 140,000 and I would be too, but don't use your fruststration to keep trashing the 4L60-E making yourself look not so sharp. There are 4L60-E's now that are getting over 150,000 without issues. As to be expected, there were some solenoid issues in the first year or 2 of the -E. Actually it wasn't even solenoid issues, it was programming issues. You are right about one thing, it does take funds in aftermarket parts to make a 700r4 and 4L60-E any kind of durable at all. A good trans man would ask the customer what they use the vehicle for and recommend some upgrades accordingly. Not tell the customer to go with a 700r4 or a 4L80-E. Both are bad ideas, unless of course you're using a 1/2 ton truck for some heavy duty stuff, then a 4L80-E upgrade might not be a bad idea. Then you have to reprogram the whole vehicle at the PROM chip etc. Have you priced a 4L80-E rebuildable core lately? Its still cheaper to upgrade the 4L60-E and 700r4.

 

[Old77]

Why is it that some peope are so unwilling to learn and correct some of the errant info that is rolling around in their heads????

 

[HotRodPC]

Sounds to me like he's been to hell and back with transmissions in his van. Been given some bad advice in the past, had some bad GM techs work on his stuff, and it has left him very frustrated to the point, his mind just can't be changed.

 

[89Suburban]

 

[crazy4offroad]

Sounds like a closet Ford lover to me.

 

[oneluckypops]

What it comes down too is the 4l60e was no good from the get go and gm..found that out quick.but crap massed produced..just keeps getting used..the only way.even one of them is any good at all

is if some one spends the big dollars and builds one.from front to back.but why would you.it is still a 50-50 if it holds up.a honest transmission man

would tell a customer.to not bother.rebuilding the trans and spending that money..if he was honest.he would tell the person.to go find a

700r4 or a 4l80e and take your chances on that.buy a used one at a wrecking yard.with low miles..and save some money.but how many honest transmission men are out there or mechanics for that matter.

Times are hard..and it is just easier.to take some ones money..too get work..they know who they are...right..

The shame of this is.if you are a company and you put out a trans or a motor and it is totally no good..if you had any honesty or honor..you would stand behind your product.

General motors..dodged and ran..if my trans goes out in my van again..i am no fool..if i keep the van..i will get a built 700r4 with out the electronics.in side the trans..

The engine.350r would work great.in another vehicle..i could do that..

What is your deal? Do you have some kind of learning disability? HOW MANY TIMES MUST WE REPEAT OURSELVES? Parts were not I repeat NOT mass produced for 30 years worth. It is a good transmission, Yes there are flaws in it, but there are also flaws in the 4L80E.

There are two main reasons why the 4L60E have premature failure.
1. GM uses them in the wrong vehichles, again NOT THE TRANS FAULT.

2. Vehichle owners abuse them, you can NOT use a 1/2 ton truck or van as a 3/4 ton with out failures, REMEMBER They are rated for 6,000 lb's. I will give you an example the tare weight on my truck (96 Chevy ECSB 4X4) with a 16' utility type trailer is 7,500 lb's, Now I am not that bad at math to know thats 1500 lb's more then what the transmission is rated for.

The cost to rebuild these transmissions are NOT that exspensive. I charge right around 1800-2500 to rebuild them, DEPENDING on what kind of internal damge has been done. I can rebuild them and make them hold up just fine for less money IF IF IF IF IF the customer does NOT abuse them, (street use only NO MORE THEN 6000 lb's GVW). I will even rebuild them for customers who choose to do the R&R themselves, but NO warrenty is given BECAUSE MOST people dont even install them correctly.

I have upgraded my Transmission to a 4L80E, I did it because my truck is a WORK truck, I will be the first to admit I abuse the **** out of it.

What your not understanding is what exactly is involved in converting to a 4L80E from a 4L60E. Compter programming, Wiring Harness, Driveshaft(s), Transfercase input shaft (4X4), all have to be changed. You wont touch a good rebuilt 4L80E for less then 2500, so by the time you buy the transmission and have the conversion parts your looking at 3,000 bucks. Another problem with this is the Gear ratio, Just like the 60E the 80E does NOT like High ratio rear ends, you need 4.10 gears to even think about using an 80E. I have 4.56 gears with my 80E. That is the ONLY reason it even holds up to the abuse it goes thru with me.

If you want to stop bad mouthing the 4L60E I would be willing to bet we could get your issues resolved. So give me the specifics of what your Transmission is in, Year, Make, Model, Curb Weight. Then tell me what the failure was in EACH of the Transmissions you had go out on you. You would besuprised of what you can learn is you would be open minded and stop beleiveing EVERYTHING you have read prior to this thread.

 

[HotRodPC]

I've seen an OEM 4L60-E in a 6.0 GTO on Nitrous run time after time at the track, and weekend after weekend without problems. He was running a 150 shot right off the launch with a stock stall too. I just knew it was gonna blow. It never did. He was running high 10's low 11's in the quarter. So one Friday night, he shows up and all of a sudden he's running mid 10's, and would have been faster if he could have hooked it up. He ran 2 passes with no problems. I finally got to talk to him, he said he upped his NOS system to a 300 shot. 3rd run on launch, Kaboom !!! Tranny parts and fluid all over the track. He wasn't to upset about it and I woudln't have been either. For god sakes, it was an OEM trans and OEM converter. He had it rebuilt and built right, He consistantly ran low 10's after that. I havent' been to the track this year, but I bet he is still runnng it and running it fine. Keep in mind, its a light car, and low geared too. But it certainly tolerates alot of abuse. NOS on a launch has blown many Th350's and several Th400's even. Of course, it you want to get real abusive I'll build you a Th400 that will tolarate at least 1000hp without a doubt. That also is actually done with mostly OEM parts too, just that I have a machinist buddy in So Cal, that machines a couple drums for me, and by the time its all said and done, the trans is 100% rollarized with Torrrington bearings and no thrust washers. Also using OEM wedge dog bone sprags instead of roller clutches for the low/reverse roller clutch and intermediate roller clutch. You can even launch this trans off a tranny brake and all the NOS you want by the time I'm done with it. The only aftermaket part as far as the rotating assembly is a hardened input shaft.

EDIT. BTW, he did not get the OEM trans rebuilt. He had another core built. The OEM trans case was shattered into about 5 big peices along with shattered Sunshell and input drum. I'm fairly certain it was actually a 4L65-E also. Not a 60-E

 

[Old77]

Good post OLP

 

[GreaseDog]

What it comes down too is the 4l60e was no good from the get go and gm..found that out quick.but crap massed produced..just keeps getting used..the only way.even one of them is any good at all

can you please tell me why GM has been using the same basic design for at least 18 years?

is if some one spends the big dollars and builds one.from front to back.but why would you.it is still a 50-50 if it holds up.a honest transmission man

would tell a customer.to not bother.rebuilding the trans and spending that money..if he was honest.he would tell the person.to go find a

700r4 or a 4l80e and take your chances on that.buy a used one at a wrecking yard.with low miles..and save some money.but how many honest transmission men are out there or mechanics for that matter.

at which point your trans guy is an idiot... a 4L60E IS a 700R4, the only difference being the electronic shift solenoids.

 

[HotRodPC]

at which point your trans guy is an idiot... a 4L60E IS a 700R4, the only difference being the electronic shift solenoids.

And that the 4L60-E has the latest updates and fixes in the rotating assembly along with more torrington bearings instead of thrust washers.

I'm even considering using all the rotating guts of a 4L60-E in my 90 700r4 K case. Only 700r4 parts I'll use is the front pump with a 10 vane rotor and the 700r4 Valve Body since I'm not using electronics. Of course I'll be using the upgrades like the Beast Sunshell, Alto Commercial 3-4 Clutch pack with Kolene Steels and Sonnax return springs, Sleeving the input drum, Sonnax Servos and ......

I'm also considering building one of my 92 700r4's in the same way to go in the 84 C20 behind the 454 and put my CUCV 4.56 rear end in it. Although the trans isn't designed to be behind a BBC and in a C20, I think built right, added cooling, and the 4.56 gear, I have a feeling it will hold up. If not, its OK. It's an experimental idea anyway. I will be pulling my 18ft tandem axle trailer with a complete 85 C20 on it.

 

[GreaseDog]

i think you'll be just fine, so long as the 454 is pretty mild. a large part of the 700R4/4L60/4L60E reputation for being a "weak" trans stems from GM's use of high rear end gears. increase the mechanical advantage at the axles, the stress on the trans is less, and the trans lasts longer. how many K10s came from the factory with a 700R4, 2.73 gears, and 31" tires right out of the box? ALOT.

my 86 C10 actually got better milage in 3rd gear than it did in OD... 305/700R4/2.73s riding on 235 75 15s, and it was completely stock.

 

[HotRodPC]

Exactly, with the 4.56's I think its going to be OK, and yes, its just an OEM 454. Has some torque but lacks horses. I'm thinking with the low gear, and the 3.06 first gear in the 700r4, the thing might finally have enough power to get out of its own way and improve the city mpg.

 

[oneluckypops]

i think you'll be just fine, so long as the 454 is pretty mild. a large part of the 700R4/4L60/4L60E reputation for being a "weak" trans stems from GM's use of high rear end gears. increase the mechanical advantage at the axles, the stress on the trans is less, and the trans lasts longer. how many K10s came from the factory with a 700R4, 2.73 gears, and 31" tires right out of the box? ALOT.

my 86 C10 actually got better milage in 3rd gear than it did in OD... 305/700R4/2.73s riding on 235 75 15s, and it was completely stock.

ding ding ding FINALLY another person who understands what high geared rear ends actually do.

31" and below tires should NEVER be ran with out atleast a 3.73 gear ratio.

 

[GreaseDog]

my daily driver has 285s on it, and 3.73 gears... i'd love a set of 4.56s

 

[GreaseDog]

ding ding ding FINALLY another person who understands what high geared rear ends actually do.

31" and below tires should NEVER be ran with out atleast a 3.73 gear ratio.

the two biggest misconceptions i come across are RPMs = MPG, and CID = MPG... i have seen occasions where identically equipped trucks, save for gears, the lower geared truck will get better economy despite the higher RPMs...

i have also seen with my own eyes a truck that swapping from a 350 to a 454 picked up fuel economy.