Ignition Timing for First-Generation GM V-8 Engines

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rich weyand

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Distributor should be connected to manifold vacuum. Ported vacuum is pollution control nonsense. Carbs before 1968 didn't even have ported vacuum connections. Read the OP above.
 

Charlie

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Distributor should be connected to manifold vacuum. Ported vacuum is pollution control nonsense. Carbs before 1968 didn't even have ported vacuum connections. Read the OP above.

I agree. I installed HEI in November and had connected to ported for a month or two. Did not seem like it was running much different than old points dist. Since changing to manifold vacuum, runs much better than before.
 

DoubleDingo

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I switched over to manifold vacuum last week and now there is a slight buzzing sound that I suspect is a vacuum leak. Will the vacuum canister do that? Just ordered a new vc1853 since the one on the distributor is who knows how old and of unknown spec. The only other thing that I can think of would be some screws loosened up on the Q-Jet and there is a small leak. I did notice the truck ran better on manifold vacuum, and that was without doing any other adjustments. I need to do some cleaning and such under the hood, so I'd already planned on pulling the carb when I pull the dizzy so I can get to the firewall for cleaning and painting. Hoping to gain a few more ponies and mpg's if possible. :)
 

73c20jim

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OK. Read all of the above and I think I understand it.

With my vacuum advance disconnected on my HEI and initial timing (at idle) at 12 degrees BTDC, I advance the RPM above 3000 RPM and get 20 degrees total timing.

Does the vacuum advance (when connected) make up the difference to get to my recommended total timing of 32 degrees BTDC ??? or is my distributor not giving enough advance ???

Having only fooled around with total timing on my race car with no vacuum advance, my total timing was set at 38 degrees BTDC and it was simple to adjust.
 

73c20jim

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Bump for help.
 

mtnmankev

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Rich answered many questions I had in my mind by posting this, MANY THANKS !!! But I still have a few that confuse me.
I will only deal with one of my trucks in this post, a stock Goodwrench 350, Edelbrock performer dual plane manifold, stock exhaust manifolds, Q-jet carburetor, stock GM HEI distributor, no emissions crap except for a PCV valve.
How do I determine the total advance I am going to want for this engine ? (altitude where I live is 5300 ft if that matters)
I have no idea if the vacuum advance cannister is a smog type or not, how can I ID what i have?
I have 4 used HEI's so there's a chance I can come up with a good non smog unit if I can ID what they are.
If the vacuum can I end up using IS a smog type, how can I modify it to perform better ?
I bought a Moroso advance kit, hopefully the springs and weights will allow me to fine tune the dizzy to its optimum peak.
 

Kryptonitekid

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I always used old factory shop manuals (1960's/early 70's) which listed the total advance for a certain distributor - as a guideline. You can install an adjustable vacuum advance unit and put a timing tape on your harmonic balancer. Then with the timing light you can see what is actually going on at any RPM (unfortunately not while driving). Will try to upload products below:
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Scott91370

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I'm having some issues getting my truck to start. It'll crank and back fire (LOUD!!!)

One place I read to find TDC was to remove the driver's side valve cover. When the 1st rocker goes down then up, second rocker goes down then up it should be at TDC; but this would mean both valves are closed.
Am I reading one of them wrong?
 

Big Chip

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I'm having some issues getting my truck to start. It'll crank and back fire (LOUD!!!)

One place I read to find TDC was to remove the driver's side valve cover. When the 1st rocker goes down then up, second rocker goes down then up it should be at TDC; but this would mean both valves are closed.
Am I reading one of them wrong?
That is correct for TDC. Both valves closed.
 

C10MixMaster

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I'm having some issues getting my truck to start. It'll crank and back fire (LOUD!!!)

One place I read to find TDC was to remove the driver's side valve cover. When the 1st rocker goes down then up, second rocker goes down then up it should be at TDC; but this would mean both valves are closed.
Am I reading one of them wrong?

Remove #1 plug, place your finger over the hole, rotate engine by hand until you feel pressure it will blow by your finger. now you are on your compression stroke, continue till you timing marks are lined up. now your on #1 TDC now install distributor .
 

Scott91370

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That's what I thought and that's where I am. Just cannot get it to fire. Weather is moving in for the next few days so I probably won't be able to try again until next weekend.
Thanks!
 

dsteelejr

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On the subject of ported vs manifold, everyone has an opinion about which one to run. The OP was correct in the context of running a stock engine with all the emissions and before the 1960s there was no ported vacuum so they all ran on manifold vacuum. Nowadays we have both ported and manifold, so just because all vacuum advances used to run on manifold vacuum is besides the point. On vehicles where emissions are not an issue and you can set your timing however you want, the choice of ported vs manifold is not so set in stone. I run ported and here’s why.

Vacuum advance has no bearing on performance beyond idle, off idle and partial throttle light engine load situations. Performance distributors have no vacuum advance and all-out race distributors have no advance whatsoever. You set your distributor for max advance and you’re always all in.

Now on these stock or close to stock distributors: if you run your distributor on manifold vacuum you are getting the maximum amount of vacuum advance at idle. When you put your foot into the gas pedal and begin to accelerate, your manifold vacuum drops and so does your vacuum advance. Accelerating off the line is when you need more advance to make more power, but because your manifold vacuum is dropping your vacuum advance is actually retarding the timing. The vacuum advance will retard the timing as you’re trying to accelerate—the complete opposite of what you want. It also follows that when you take your foot off the gas pedal your manifold vacuum increases and that’s when the vacuum advance is at its highest again—when you DON’T need it on deceleration.

If you run ported vacuum and everything is set up correctly then you have no vacuum advance at idle, but when you begin to accelerate you get a sudden burst of vacuum, which gives you a burst of advance, which translates into a burst of torque as you’re getting into it.

If you’re running on manifold and switch to ported, you need to set your initial timing a little bit higher to compensate for the fact that you have no vacuum advance at idle. I set mine to 16°. I also used a dial back timing light to verify that with the initial timing set that high I wasn’t exceeding 36° of total timing. You will also have to readjust the idle mixture screws and possibly set your idle stop screw a little higher, but it’s not a big deal. The result is more torque when you get into it off the line and once you get going it’s really doesn’t behave significantly different than running on manifold vacuum.

Again, there is no right or wrong about ported or manifold and everyone has their reasons for each. Just adding my two cents to the discussion.
 
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Raider L

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After I rebuilt my engine into modified performance and running the first cam I had in it I found it would ping going up slight inclines, and not having anyway to stop it while moving, I tried at first to speed up, up the incline. That made it worse, and I slowed down and it stopped. Since I didn't have an adjustable vacuum advance I made several changes to my mechanical timing. I had changed my factory point type ignition when I rebuilt the engine to a MSD magnetic pickup.

This dist. had a "advance lock out". All it was for was to bolt down the fly weight plate from moving as the rpm went up. Instead I got the paper out of the dist. box and in it was a extensive set of charts for your cam and rpm and the corresponding springs you would need to put in so the advance would either slowly or quickly advance. Then you set the full advance your engine ne3eded for what you were going to use it for, street or race. My full advance is 31 degrees. That is on the cam I currently have in the engine. I had a much bigger cam when I first built the engine. Now it doesn't ever ping no matter how slow I'm going or what the terrain. The springs do all the advancing. I can be crawling up a incline and stomp it and it just goes fast up the hill.
 

Swearbody

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Only thing I would add is to find your true tdc before timing. Ive ran into instances where lining up the marks still wasnt true tdc.
 

Swearbody

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A stock rebuilt HEI from rock auto is $80.
Ive had great luck with them.
If you have tight engine clearance issues,the Mallory unilite can be found for a good price.
I run both and haven't had any issues.

I got a brand new recurved hei from summit for $100. Has medium springs and adjustable vac adv out the box. Is working well so far.
 

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