Death wobble, or bad wheel balance?

[Dano500]

So, when I came across my truck, all tires were inflated, except front driver and who knows how long it was like this; several years. When I was working on it and testing different things, I’d take it around neighborhood and I could feel the bounce from what I thought was low point in tire. I just put on new wheels and tires. They look oddly balance to me with wheel weights, but they are the experts. The bounce was immediately gone. Felt nice at low speed, but when I tried it on feeder, say getting up to 55/60mph- then death wobble started, or bad balance of tires. That shaking of steering wheel side to side and whole cab going out of whack. I immediately slowed and it went away.

I got it home and checked for play. Tie rods are solid, but I did find problem with ball joint wiggle on passenger side, so now there is that. And, to make things more interesting, when I installed drop pitman arm, I also did drag link and I think I did it wrong- slightly toe out.

Second part of steering problem.
Steering wheel changes position with turning. Say I start off at 10 deg to right and with driving out of my place, I have to turn right and when I go back straight, wheel is like at 80 deg to right. When I turn left, it corrects it mostly. It feels like, or as if the splines on a 2wd steering box are worn, but I know 4wd gear boxes have the notch for the pitman arm bolt. Rag joint seems solid when I check it. Can anything in shaft behind firewall be the culprit?

Thanks in advance,
-Dan

 

[idahovette]

If the steering wheel changes positions after a turn, something is loose. Leaf spring bushings, spring center pin, axle u-bolts......something is shifting. Probably gonna be a 2 person operation....one turning the steering wheel and someone under the rig watching all the linkage and springs for movement. After you find the looseness and repair it, , then possibly a tire rebalance is in your future, too, along with an alignment check.

 

[RanchWelder]

Agreed idahoevette...

If you stripped the pitman because of the toe issue, you might be missing a few teeth on the Saginaw shaft/pitman connection... which could have blown out the ball joint or vice versa.

If the Saginaw Steering box was ever "adjusted" to remove slop, (like I did on my Cutlass 442, after being given bad advice), the balls inside the Saginaw can cause this issue, as well.
In fact poor geometry with the pitman can cause the Saginaw to slop and then people try to adjust and then it breaks the internals.

My best advice is to NEVER adjust a Saginaw box, without proper shims, new bearings and the technical manual, new seals etc.

Your suggestion the pitman angle might have been incorrect means the Saginaw either needs a rebuild or replacement with correct gemetry on the pitman.

I broke my Saginaw on my Cutlass 442 with slightly wider front tires and pot holes in the roads.
When I adjusted it 1/8", my adjustment ruined the box.

Back then they were $800 to replace with no foreign aftermarket options, like today.

Pics?

 

[Grit dog]

Sounds like a couple wore out parts and the steering box could be one of them. And toe out will just make it wander and exaggerate other problems. Used to “fix” sloppy steering when selling an old vehicle by toeing in the tires too much. Opposite happens if toe out.
But if you replaced the Pittman make sure the nut on the steering box is tight. If it’s a little loose it makes the steering sloppy because it can move a bit on the splines.
What you described was death wobble not just an out of balance tire. Although an out of balance tire could be a contributor.

 

[Dano500]

@idahovette @RanchWelder @Grit dog
The pitman arm nut was still tight when I checked it. The steering box is an autozone box, so maybe it’s the problem.

I can grab steering shaft with pliers and move it approx 10 deg, maybe little more and there is no play in rag joint. If I try to move steering wheel with truck off and wheel unlocked, to see if I can get it to move more like when I’m driving, I can’t get it to budge past the aforementioned 10deg.

I am replacing springs, bolts and shocks this weekend, so I’ll make sure new stuff is tight and see what happens.

 

[Grit dog]

What caused you to replace the steering box? Did it have DW before replacing? Did you drive it at highway speed before replacing?
Honestly between the DW, the lack of returning to center the same and the 10deg of what I’m perceiving to be slop (although I could be misunderstanding what you’re saying) I’m going to go with high likelihood of a bad reman box. That’s not a stretch to believe. Reman anything is a crap shoot anymore. Especially big box store parts.
The slop ISNT in the steering linkages if you have new Pittman, drag link and the rod ends are tight and rag joint is tight. Points to the box imo.
But remember internet diagnoses are worth what you paid for them lol. Hate to have you r n r the box and find out im wrong. Lol
Good luck.

 

[Grit dog]

And if you think it may be a bad tire balance swap it with a rear wheel to verify. Even though you bought staggered wheels. It’ll tell you if that’s part of or all of the vibration problem.
Bigger tires often take a lot of weight. And tire shops often suck at trying to minimize the weight vs spending time to rotate the tire if it’s a lot of weight to balance out.

 

[squaredeal91]

Ive had death wobble on numerous trucks and sometimes it was Bad Stabilizer shock? Or is this a 2wd?

 

[Dano500]

@squaredeal91 I read that somewhere as well. I’m gonna have them check the balancing on the new wheels/tires, but I do have a bad ball joint in passenger side. Yes, it is a K20.

 

[RanchWelder]

Newer-ish tires seem to require way more weights.
If you have aluminum or magnesium wheels and the used flat lead weights with sub-standard glue, (Like they just used on my new front wheel weights), they might have flung off within hours of being mounted because they uysed cheap weight glue.

Or somebody might have screwed with your truck a removed the lead weights, as well.

Hope it's not the latter.
Both have happened to me.

 

[idahovette]

A steering stabilizer/damper may temporarily fix it.........but that usually just masks the problem.....for awhile, if at all? That's what I have found in my experience?

 

[Dano500]

What caused you to replace the steering box? Did it have DW before replacing? Did you drive it at highway speed before replacing?
Honestly between the DW, the lack of returning to center the same and the 10deg of what I’m perceiving to be slop (although I could be misunderstanding what you’re saying) I’m going to go with high likelihood of a bad reman box. That’s not a stretch to believe. Reman anything is a crap shoot anymore. Especially big box store parts.
The slop ISNT in the steering linkages if you have new Pittman, drag link and the rod ends are tight and rag joint is tight. Points to the box imo.
But remember internet diagnoses are worth what you paid for them lol. Hate to have you r n r the box and find out im wrong. Lol
Good luck.

Yes, I drove it about 50 when I first got it and even in city driving, it was pretty sloppy and the wheel was off center then. So, I got this crapzone one and I'm hoping it is the problem. Now, I don't know if I should get a borgeson, or do the crossover thing... I'm going to get through this and see how it feels and if that still doesn't work, I'll swap the tires to find out. I'll take all the luck I can get, thanks.

Newer-ish tires seem to require way more weights.
If you have aluminum or magnesium wheels and the used flat lead weights with sub-standard glue, (Like they just used on my new front wheel weights), they might have flung off within hours of being mounted because they uysed cheap weight glue.

Or somebody might have screwed with your truck a removed the lead weights, as well.

Hope it's not the latter.
Both have happened to me.

They are steel wheels and they have the clip on weights, but they did it so ugly. lol Like two weights together on the outside of the wheels.

 

[Grit dog]

Newer-ish tires seem to require way more weights.
If you have aluminum or magnesium wheels and the used flat lead weights with sub-standard glue, (Like they just used on my new front wheel weights), they might have flung off within hours of being mounted because they uysed cheap weight glue.

Or somebody might have screwed with your truck a removed the lead weights, as well.

Hope it's not the latter.
Both have happened to me.

What makes newish tires more out of balance than old-ish tires?
Yes I suppose it has happened where sticky weights have come off, probably from not cleaning the wheel surface. The glue is whatever sticky tape that they are mfg with. Noone is gluing down weights.
And someone sabotaging your tire weights? lol. That’d be a first.
Don’t let paranoia get the best of you

 

[idahovette]

I don't think you can balance new tires properly. I believe that the tires need to "seat" on the wheels before they are are totally on? I always rebalance 400 to 500 miles after they are installed...........just my experience......That and $3 may buy you a cup of coffee........or a beer...lol

 

[Old Guy Bill]

You’ve got a bad ball joint… definitely start there