Crate engine swap advise please?

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73 C10

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When the vac can rod retracts into the can it is advancing the timing. With the limiter acting as a stop on the side crane is suggesting the timing will always stay in an advanced state with or without the vacuum can connected to a vacuum source. It just the nature of the beast. When you lose vacuum your losing the amount of advance the distributor is seeing which is how it's designed.

Sent from the dust in front of you!

At 550 RPM, with the vac unplugged, the only advanced state, is the base 8* of advance, with the limiter acting as a stop on the side crane is suggesting. No other advanced state, until the mechanical comes in.

The va just requires more vacuum to put it into a further advanced state. Further advanced from 8*.

I'm going to put it at the end we think it should be. Or get the non adjustable one Rich suggests.
 

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At 550 RPM, with the vac unplugged, the only advanced state, is the base 8* of advance, with the limiter acting as a stop on the side crane is suggesting. No other advanced state, until the mechanical in.

Here's the issue. That extra on top of the initial timing stays With the total When under WOT. That is a big problem.

Yes install it on the other side as suggested.
Save your money...

Sent from the dust in front of you!
 

73 C10

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This is very important to get correct. Play with it with your vacuum pump and gauge until you get it correct. If you are holding VA in all the time, you will never be able to tune the engine properly.

Remember the spec for the stock AR23 can: 5-7 7.5 @ 11-12.5

- starts pulling in between 5" and 7" vacuum.

- 7.5 camshaft degrees (15 crankshaft degrees) total, all in.

- all in by 11" to 12.5" of vacuum.

(Or for $20 you could just buy a stock AR23 (VC1853) can and not worry about all the adjustment, limiters, etc. http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...cuum-Advance-Control/_/R-ECHVC1853_0168354142)

No. I don't think it on all the time. I think it's out sooner because it only has to drop to 10" to be out. Back to base. Where I set it when vac was unplugged and against the limiter. 8* currently.

I want to get it right. I think right is to put the limiter sutch that the pin pulls into it. That would allow the pin to start pulling at what you suggest.

Or get the AR23.

Funny. You said buy a new one to get back to the stock map, like this one will. You also warned that things that can be adjusted, need to be adjusted. So I was supersized when you said this distributors va was NOT stock. I guess "blueprint" is not meant in that regard.
 

73 C10

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Here's the issue. That extra on top of the initial timing stays With the total When under WOT. That is a big problem.

Yes install it on the other side as suggested.
Save your money...

Sent from the dust in front of you!

Sorry. I thought at WOT was when vac drops and va is barely present. I thought it would only have to drop to 10" to have no va, and be back at base. 8*.

I also thought that at WOT when there is not enough vac pressent, and also depending on the engine RPM, there would be some other varying amount of advanced state added by the mechanical advance above 900 RPM.

I'm just not sure of what extra you speak of.
 

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No offence here man. You have a misunderstanding on how this works. Ask yourself this... What happens when you apply vacuum to the can? Now what happens when you apply just enough vacuum to get the can rod to move and leave it there throughout the entire rpm range? This is what's happening with the limiter while acting as a stop.

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rich weyand

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Yup. The aftermarket HEI distributors have adjustable vac advance cans so you can set it to be what you want, since there were so many variations in stock cans and they don't want to have to stock 97 different products. The problem with anything adjustable is that it must be adjusted. I would just go with a stock can, then all this rigamarole about how to adjust it goes away.

The vac advance is because, when there is vacuum in the manifold, this results in the gas molecules being farther apart in the chamber, so the charge burns slower. It therefore needs to have more time to burn, so the spark need to fire sooner. Since timing is in degrees, not milliseconds, as the rpms go up, a certain amount of degrees is a shorter time, so the spark needs to fire sooner in degrees to have the same time in milliseconds for the charge to burn. Thus the need for mechanical advance as the engine speeds up. We talk about ideal points -- base only, base + VA, base+ mech -- but in practice driving around, you almost always have base+partof the VA+part of the mech.

One note: If the VA is partially in all the time, even at 0 vacuum, that gets adjusted out when you set the base timing, so it isn't an issue. The issue occurs when it comes in too soon, or too hard.

Buy the stock can and throw it in there. Done. One less thing to worry about.
 

73 C10

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No offence here man. You have a misunderstanding on how this works. Ask yourself this... What happens when you apply vacuum to the can? Now what happens when you apply just enough vacuum to get the can rod to move and leave it there throughout the entire rpm range? This is what's happening with the limiter while acting as a stop.

Sent from the dust in front of you!

Not offended, trying to learn.

If I did as you suggest, i would have 8*-9* of timing. Essentially base. And it would take 9"-10" of vac.

With vac plugged in, it would not do that, vac would build to 18" and i would have 15* va.

Sorry I don't get what your saying, yet.
 

73 C10

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I have the original. I took it out of the old distributor and put in an adjustable one and va limmiter at someone's suggestion, before replacing the whole thing.

You must see how we have gone around?
 

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Not offended, trying to learn.

If I did as you suggest, i would have 8*-9* of timing. Essentially base. And it would take 9"-10" of vac.

With vac plugged in, it would not do that, vac would build to 18" and i would have 15* va.

Sorry I don't get what your saying, yet.
I keep it simple as that is what has worked for many without failure for many decades. When setting the initial there should be no vacuum advance present. I suggested you set you timing low until we were able to pinpoint your rattling issue. You can set it slowly @ 10- 12 degrees btc or what rich suggest to go for.

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350runner

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I have the original. I took it out of the old distributor and put in an adjustable one and va limmiter at someone's suggestion, before replacing the whole thing.

You must see how we have gone around?
That's fine just make sure to install the limit device correctly.

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rich weyand

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Make sure the old one works, then put it in there. You can always replace it later once things are running right if you want to.

I find a lot of the ****-bang gizmotron aftermarket parts to be more of a PITA than a benefit.
 

73 C10

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No offence here man. You have a misunderstanding on how this works. Ask yourself this... What happens when you apply vacuum to the can? Now what happens when you apply just enough vacuum to get the can rod to move and leave it there throughout the entire rpm range? This is what's happening with the limiter while acting as a stop.

Sent from the dust in front of you!

Don't worry bud, I am trying what you suggest in the end, it just seams I must have to experience it to have it make sense. Really, that's why I'm playing with this thing in the first place. This is my schooling.

I'm trying things, making observations, and learning slowly.

I may not get it, but we may work it out anyway.
 

73 C10

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Hey Rich,

I made my next change which was to put your needle back in. The 6857. I'm sure that won't be the overwhelming favorite, but nobody liked what was in there.

So I went out for a spin with va. And it had a bog off the start, but felt much better. I was a bit suprized. There was no rattle. It's still bogging a bit with with the hammer down. I'm going to guess that it might have some to do with the 5", 10", limiter side, argument were having. So I want to put the old one back on after checking it by hand for smooth movement and checking the numbers. If it looks bad, I would want to modify the the new one or the last one I bought that was on the old distributor to (also adjustable) so the Crane limiter is on the good side set to limit to 15*.

On that I think we would all agree, so I'm going out to f with it some more.:)
 
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