700r4 questions

[Dutch Rutter]

+ do you by chance have any sharp bends or anything like that

also, what temps are you afraid of / what have you traditionally seen on your trans

also, You ever going to use your ac condensor? If not, you can make room.

There is a tighter bend (not kinked or anything) in the rubber line from is leaves the radiator and goes to the cooler.
I'm used to seeing a steady 135-140 with normal driving in these colder months. This morning on the way in to work (20 minute drive mostly 55mph then into some city traffic 30-40mph) I saw mostly 135-140 until I was stopped at a longer light and it climbed up to 170-175. It then dropped back down to 135-140 after the light changed. It seemed like a normal and acceptable amount of heat. Not necessarily the normal. Considering that my normal is based on the radiator being completely bypassed and now I am running it through the radiator. I would expect it to be a bit different then before.

That is a great idea to remove the condenser if I end up needing that LARGE cooler. I had always wanted to get AC again but I don't see any reason to have working AC in a vehicle that wouldn't be able to drive.

I did get the truck back from the shop yesterday. They said everything checked out. They did say that the TC is locking like it should (I think a Test light for that would be a good idea). They did mention that they thought my TV cable was a little to "jumpy" for their liking. They adjusted that a little. It feels the same by my butt dyno so that's fine. They also said that my cooling setup is more then adequate to cool anything that I would ever throw at it. So if it gets to 250+ again I should let them know, because something internal has to be wrong with the trans and causing that. They also admitted to intending to stick to the additional 2 years of warranty on it. So that is some good news.

 

[Dutch Rutter]

So glad I put a nv4500 in my beast. I've hated every slushbox I have owned.

I've always favored this idea. To the point that I have the needed brake/clutch pedal assembly sitting on my garage shelf next to a tilt column from a manual truck.
I am kind of kicking myself for not just going with the $3400 kit from high impact.net last year instead of spending that same $3400 for this shop to put in this 700r4.

I recently found that Tremec TR-4050 5 speed https://shiftsst.com/1973-1987-k-series
and they make swap kits for our trucks. According to their website, their 4wd 5 speed is made new (no core charge), stronger then the NV4500, and has synchros in all gears.
I am quite confident they want more then $3400 for one of their kits though.

I am curious, how was the swap? I've read ALOT about it and it doesn't seem to bad of an undertaking. But there is always that small sh!t that comes up with those kinds of jobs. And has it proven to be as bullet proof and nice to live with as everyone says it is?

 

[Bextreme04]

Those temps are way too high in my opinion. Especially with a large external cooler. A good rule of thumb for properly cooled transmissions should be no more than 100 degrees above ambient while under load. If you are seeing 170 degree temps, while stopped at a light, there is something seriously wrong there. Especially since we haven't been seeing any ambient temps above about 50 degrees here lately. My 2011 Suburban has a 6L80E and before I installed an external cooler I could pull a 3500lb trailer around the mountains here and never see above 200 degrees. With the external cooler installed I had it topping out around 230 degrees last week pulling the coastal mountain range pass at 45mph with my loaded 6000lb travel trailer. Its only a 1500 with 3.08 gears, so it is less than happy with this situation. I only see around 130 degrees when driving around anywhere unloaded. Its a factory HD tow package cooling system that runs through the radiator, then the external cooler, then back to the trans.

With that setup, I was having overheating issues when I pulled the trailer down to cali and was seeing 100+ degree ambient temps. In those situations it was running around 195 degrees on level ground and spiking up well over 210 any time I hit any kind of hill. I'm currently swapping the rear end gears to 4.10's and will be putting a tru-cool 40k out front before I pull the trailer again, just to be sure. Any temps over 210 will start breaking down the fluid and adversely affect the clutch packs. High heat will directly effect the longevity of the trans, especially in a 700R4. It sounds to me like the trans shop has definitely messed up something(or missed replacing a worn part) and they are just hoping it will limp along long enough that they can get it out of warranty. Who did you end up having do the work? I haven't had anyone do any trans work for me here, but I did take my TH400 pump over to Sam at Sam's transmissions on high street to get a new bushing and seal before I stuck it back in my truck. I've talked to him a few times and he seems to be a solid and knowledgeable guy that works primarily on older hot rod stuff. Its a small little shop back behind the Cinebarre theatre on High street.

 

[Dutch Rutter]

Those temps are way too high in my opinion. Especially with a large external cooler. A good rule of thumb for properly cooled transmissions should be no more than 100 degrees above ambient while under load. If you are seeing 170 degree temps, while stopped at a light, there is something seriously wrong there. Especially since we haven't been seeing any ambient temps above about 50 degrees here lately. My 2011 Suburban has a 6L80E and before I installed an external cooler I could pull a 3500lb trailer around the mountains here and never see above 200 degrees. With the external cooler installed I had it topping out around 230 degrees last week pulling the coastal mountain range pass at 45mph with my loaded 6000lb travel trailer. Its only a 1500 with 3.08 gears, so it is less than happy with this situation. I only see around 130 degrees when driving around anywhere unloaded. Its a factory HD tow package cooling system that runs through the radiator, then the external cooler, then back to the trans.

With that setup, I was having overheating issues when I pulled the trailer down to cali and was seeing 100+ degree ambient temps. In those situations it was running around 195 degrees on level ground and spiking up well over 210 any time I hit any kind of hill. I'm currently swapping the rear end gears to 4.10's and will be putting a tru-cool 40k out front before I pull the trailer again, just to be sure. Any temps over 210 will start breaking down the fluid and adversely affect the clutch packs. High heat will directly effect the longevity of the trans, especially in a 700R4. It sounds to me like the trans shop has definitely messed up something(or missed replacing a worn part) and they are just hoping it will limp along long enough that they can get it out of warranty. Who did you end up having do the work? I haven't had anyone do any trans work for me here, but I did take my TH400 pump over to Sam at Sam's transmissions on high street to get a new bushing and seal before I stuck it back in my truck. I've talked to him a few times and he seems to be a solid and knowledgeable guy that works primarily on older hot rod stuff. Its a small little shop back behind the Cinebarre theatre on High street.

Hey Eric, I was hoping you'd chime in! Honestly this has been my thinking as well. You've seen the truck when it was running and working at the level of what I would call "normal". It didn't have any temp issues when we drove down to Eugene. Then after whatever changed, I couldn't even get to Albany from the house without seeing 250 on that gauge.

I've been past Sam's Transmissions a few times but I've never been in there. I might need to bring that thing by for a "just in case checkup". The place that did the work is Revis Keizer Automotive. When they replaced it, I was a little weary when they told me that they don't do any in house transmission work. They basically pulled mine (was all kinds of screwed) and got a rebuilt 700r4 from a 3rd party company in Washington that "Does great work, and we've been using stuff from them for years.". Then they installed and setup that transmission. It's been working well up to this point. Even though they said things are working like they should I cant help but feel something is off with it. I feel for a 3/4 ton truck to have trans temp issues pulling a small trailer with some quads to the coast is more then a little ridiculous. I'm really starting to think that I should just pull the trigger on the 5 speed swap and be done with it, to hell with their "warranty".

 

[Bextreme04]

Hey Eric, I was hoping you'd chime in! Honestly this has been my thinking as well. You've seen the truck when it was running and working at the level of what I would call "normal". It didn't have any temp issues when we drove down to Eugene. Then after whatever changed, I couldn't even get to Albany from the house without seeing 250 on that gauge.

I've been past Sam's Transmissions a few times but I've never been in there. I might need to bring that thing by for a "just in case checkup". The place that did the work is Revis Keizer Automotive. When they replaced it, I was a little weary when they told me that they don't do any in house transmission work. They basically pulled mine (was all kinds of screwed) and got a rebuilt 700r4 from a 3rd party company in Washington that "Does great work, and we've been using stuff from them for years.". Then they installed and setup that transmission. It's been working well up to this point. Even though they said things are working like they should I cant help but feel something is off with it. I feel for a 3/4 ton truck to have trans temp issues pulling a small trailer with some quads to the coast is more then a little ridiculous. I'm really starting to think that I should just pull the trigger on the 5 speed swap and be done with it, to hell with their "warranty".

Yeah, it definitely shouldnt have any issue... and definitely not just driving to albany unloaded. 250 degrees is WAY overtemp and is shortening the life of the trans, especially with conventional Dex III. Dex VI is synthetic and will take higher temps a bit better without breaking down but it still is bad for the clutch packs.

Did the shop actually measure line pressure and test both flow through the radiator/cooler lines and flow rate out of the trans? They should have those tools if they service transmissions regularly. If you have a restriction in the cooler lines, that would give you both extra heat in the trans and less lubrication in the trans itself. Low flow out of the trans would most likely be a sticking/leaky valve in the trans or a pump that is wearing out or damaged.

@Vbb199 can maybe chime in with the temps he sees... he is regularly towing his blazer on a car trailer behind his 700R4 equipped suburban. To me, if you see 250 trans temps EVER, you have an issue. With the amount of supplemental cooling capacity on your trans, I wouldn't expect to see over about 180 even when fully loaded and climbing mountains.

 

[Dutch Rutter]

Yeah, it definitely shouldnt have any issue... and definitely not just driving to albany unloaded. 250 degrees is WAY overtemp and is shortening the life of the trans, especially with conventional Dex III. Dex VI is synthetic and will take higher temps a bit better without breaking down but it still is bad for the clutch packs.

Did the shop actually measure line pressure and test both flow through the radiator/cooler lines and flow rate out of the trans? They should have those tools if they service transmissions regularly. If you have a restriction in the cooler lines, that would give you both extra heat in the trans and less lubrication in the trans itself. Low flow out of the trans would most likely be a sticking/leaky valve in the trans or a pump that is wearing out or damaged.

@Vbb199 can maybe chime in with the temps he sees... he is regularly towing his blazer on a car trailer behind his 700R4 equipped suburban. To me, if you see 250 trans temps EVER, you have an issue. With the amount of supplemental cooling capacity on your trans, I wouldn't expect to see over about 180 even when fully loaded and climbing mountains.

They said they checked to make sure the cooling setup was sufficient, but they did not go into any actual detail as to how they did that, even when I probed a bit, they changed the subject and never gave a straight answer. Makes me think they don't actually know much about transmissions other then how to change fluid and replace them when they don't move anymore.

I gave Sam's Transmission a call (let a voicemail), I'll get it to them and give them the whole story behind this thing. I figure a second opinion from people who know what they are talking about will be good and worth paying for. With some more knowledge about what is actually going on with it could give me something to take back to Revis with and flat out tell them what is wrong with it. One would think that they would replace it under warranty once they verify said problem themselves. Which would get taken back to Sam's to verify because I obviously shouldn't trust that Revis shop too much.

 

[AuroraGirl]

did you get the word on the fluid IN it?
If its not the right ATF it could be causing slipping. Basically like, they didnt put no damn mercon LV (low viscosity) because that will cause a LOT of heat in a older trans.

 

[AuroraGirl]

So glad I put a nv4500 in my beast. I've hated every slushbox I have owned.

Ford autos are just dog compared to the slushboxes of gm of the time.

ever drive an E4OD in a truck thats hot-cold on weather it wants to be smooth or it wants to go.... NOW! the pause was for dramatic effect

 

[Dutch Rutter]

did you get the word on the fluid IN it?
If its not the right ATF it could be causing slipping. Basically like, they didnt put no damn mercon LV (low viscosity) because that will cause a LOT of heat in a older trans.

I did make sure to nail them down on an answer for what fluid they would use in it and they said dex3 equivalent. So probably the same junk I buy off the shelf.

I got an appointment to bring it by the specialty shop @Bextreme04 recommended. Sam seemed nice and knowledgeable. I explained the ENTIRE situation to him and he agreed I should probably have a transmission specific shop take a look at it instead of just a general mechanic shop. He said bring it by anytime, I'll check the fluid, take it for a drive and poke around to see what's what. So we'll see how that goes.

 

[1985c20]

Let’s start from the beginning. Where are you measuring transmission temps from? Is the flow of fluid from transmission to radiator to additional cooler to transmission now? That’s how it should be. Basically your temps don’t seem bad to me. Everyone else was correct you can over-cool the fluid. It needs to be up to temp to work correctly. 250 is obviously too high but I’m a little confused what the conditions were when that happened. As for your temps rising sitting at a stop light, what is your idle speed? You might be riding against the converter sitting at a light which will heat it up. My 03 2500hd has a factory Tranny temp gauge and it usually runs around 180 degrees just cruising around. That’s with it running through the radiator to the factory external cooler and back to the transmission. If you’re overheating the transmission hauling then you don’t have enough cooling or fluid flow. The 700r4 pump doesn’t put out much in overdrive that’s why you should pull it down to drive towing. You said you’re external cooler has a thermostat bypass on it, did you verify it’s opening? Maybe it hauled and you’re only using 1/3 of it all the time. You could get it hot and check it with the TIC (fellow firefighter here and I’ve used ours as a diagnostic tool also haha) to see if the whole thing is heating up.

 

[Vbb199]

Yeah, it definitely shouldnt have any issue... and definitely not just driving to albany unloaded. 250 degrees is WAY overtemp and is shortening the life of the trans, especially with conventional Dex III. Dex VI is synthetic and will take higher temps a bit better without breaking down but it still is bad for the clutch packs.

Did the shop actually measure line pressure and test both flow through the radiator/cooler lines and flow rate out of the trans? They should have those tools if they service transmissions regularly. If you have a restriction in the cooler lines, that would give you both extra heat in the trans and less lubrication in the trans itself. Low flow out of the trans would most likely be a sticking/leaky valve in the trans or a pump that is wearing out or damaged.

@Vbb199 can maybe chime in with the temps he sees... he is regularly towing his blazer on a car trailer behind his 700R4 equipped suburban. To me, if you see 250 trans temps EVER, you have an issue. With the amount of supplemental cooling capacity on your trans, I wouldn't expect to see over about 180 even when fully loaded and climbing mountains.

I see roughly 160 or so empty, and when towing the 7-8k (idk the exact weight), the Temps are reaching like... 190 in the trans. It raises slightly on WOT 3rd gear towing up a hill, but otherwise isn't bad.....

250 I believe it past the safe point for atf. Like way past.
220 is ideally the max, and for every 20 degrees higher past 220, it's getting worse.
230-240 it begins to break down and viscosity lowers, clutches glaze over, excessive heat grows.

Dunno how op is running his at 250 LOL


Seems like maybe an inaccurate gauge lol

 

[Dutch Rutter]

Alright everyone, I got an update to this thing finally.

@1985c20, and @Vbb199
Temps are being measured from the pan, I've verified the gauge is accurate with a TIC. the gauge is not 100% dead on. But only shows 5-8 degrees high compared to the pan temp.
its not constantly running at 250. it would rise up to those temps then fall back down. Without having to shut things down, which tells me that my cooling is working.
Idle speed is 650rpm.
These temp issues were happening with normal every day driving, unloaded. Not hot rodding it, nothing out of the norm. on 45-55mph back roads.

I was confident something internally of the transmission is not working correctly, just what IDK. But something. I do still believe the TC is not locking up at all despite whatever the warranting mechanic shop says.

THE UPDATE:

I took the truck to the Transmission specialty shop, Sam (extremely knowledgeable and honest guy) says the fluid (Mostly brand new fluid as of a week ago or so now, when I did that drain and fill)
is toast, smells super burnt. I verified this myself. It smells burnt AF.

He took it for a drive and confirmed it is not only slipping occasionally on hard pulls but it also is not locking the TC.

He then asked me where the transmission came from, I told him the shop which installed it got it from a company in WA named TRC.
He then informs me that he worked for them, for about 2 weeks. He quit when he got tired of them telling him to throw transmissions back together with worn components in order to cut down on their cost per unit.
He informed me that as it is, the transmission is surviving because my cooling is working so well.
He then walked me through all of the upgrades that he does for the 700r4s and informed me that for him to rebuild it (like it needs) would be around $3800. But would not be able to do it until after the holidays. I am going to keep that in my back pocket right now.

I informed Revis (the warranting shop) this news and they said "bring it by and we'll take it out and see what is going on with it"
I am expecting them to replace it with another rebuilt trans.
When I get the truck back from them, probably in January, I'll see how it functions and decide just what I am going to end up doing with it.

 

[Bextreme04]

Alright everyone, I got an update to this thing finally.

@1985c20, and @Vbb199
Temps are being measured from the pan, I've verified the gauge is accurate with a TIC. the gauge is not 100% dead on. But only shows 5-8 degrees high compared to the pan temp.
its not constantly running at 250. it would rise up to those temps then fall back down. Without having to shut things down, which tells me that my cooling is working.
Idle speed is 650rpm.
These temp issues were happening with normal every day driving, unloaded. Not hot rodding it, nothing out of the norm. on 45-55mph back roads.

I was confident something internally of the transmission is not working correctly, just what IDK. But something. I do still believe the TC is not locking up at all despite whatever the warranting mechanic shop says.

THE UPDATE:

I took the truck to the Transmission specialty shop, Sam (extremely knowledgeable and honest guy) says the fluid (Mostly brand new fluid as of a week ago or so now, when I did that drain and fill)
is toast, smells super burnt. I verified this myself. It smells burnt AF.

He took it for a drive and confirmed it is not only slipping occasionally on hard pulls but it also is not locking the TC.

He then asked me where the transmission came from, I told him the shop which installed it got it from a company in WA named TRC.
He then informs me that he worked for them, for about 2 weeks. He quit when he got tired of them telling him to throw transmissions back together with worn components in order to cut down on their cost per unit.
He informed me that as it is, the transmission is surviving because my cooling is working so well.
He then walked me through all of the upgrades that he does for the 700r4s and informed me that for him to rebuild it (like it needs) would be around $3800. But would not be able to do it until after the holidays. I am going to keep that in my back pocket right now.

I informed Revis (the warranting shop) this news and they said "bring it by and we'll take it out and see what is going on with it"
I am expecting them to replace it with another rebuilt trans.
When I get the truck back from them, probably in January, I'll see how it functions and decide just what I am going to end up doing with it.

Bummer. Glad Sam was able to figure out what was going on. It's a shame that the shop uses such a terrible, non-local builder. You would think they would use a better company since they are out the labor of having to swap the units out each time.

 

[Vbb199]

Alright everyone, I got an update to this thing finally.

@1985c20, and @Vbb199
Temps are being measured from the pan, I've verified the gauge is accurate with a TIC. the gauge is not 100% dead on. But only shows 5-8 degrees high compared to the pan temp.
its not constantly running at 250. it would rise up to those temps then fall back down. Without having to shut things down, which tells me that my cooling is working.
Idle speed is 650rpm.
These temp issues were happening with normal every day driving, unloaded. Not hot rodding it, nothing out of the norm. on 45-55mph back roads.

I was confident something internally of the transmission is not working correctly, just what IDK. But something. I do still believe the TC is not locking up at all despite whatever the warranting mechanic shop says.

THE UPDATE:

I took the truck to the Transmission specialty shop, Sam (extremely knowledgeable and honest guy) says the fluid (Mostly brand new fluid as of a week ago or so now, when I did that drain and fill)
is toast, smells super burnt. I verified this myself. It smells burnt AF.

He took it for a drive and confirmed it is not only slipping occasionally on hard pulls but it also is not locking the TC.

He then asked me where the transmission came from, I told him the shop which installed it got it from a company in WA named TRC.
He then informs me that he worked for them, for about 2 weeks. He quit when he got tired of them telling him to throw transmissions back together with worn components in order to cut down on their cost per unit.
He informed me that as it is, the transmission is surviving because my cooling is working so well.
He then walked me through all of the upgrades that he does for the 700r4s and informed me that for him to rebuild it (like it needs) would be around $3800. But would not be able to do it until after the holidays. I am going to keep that in my back pocket right now.

I informed Revis (the warranting shop) this news and they said "bring it by and we'll take it out and see what is going on with it"
I am expecting them to replace it with another rebuilt trans.
When I get the truck back from them, probably in January, I'll see how it functions and decide just what I am going to end up doing with it.

I saw this with a 47re I built.
A friend of mine does like, diesel truck work/repair/upgrades from home. Diesel work as a profession.


Basically, the kid (maybe 20) that was having my friend work on his truck just dumped these "800 hp" parts in my lap from some unknown internet diesel expert websire, with a Amazon "dual bullet clutch" torque converter. No brand really specified.

I tore it down, to find that the transmission was a gasser unit, that someone bolted behind a dodge 24v Cummins.

Anyway, I built the GASOLINE 47re (the differences are **** like, # of clutches, snap ring thickness, spring pressures, clearance settings) to the specs I got from a ATSG manual.
No issues really
Installed the Amazon TC, and the guy then put it In the dodge We was fixing for the kid .

After the install, the kid goes beating on the damn thing while showing off for a bunch of girls/guys?

He told me and my friend "it never had lockup" after bringing it back. We discovered the TC was ridiculously hot and had blue spots around the snout, the trans temps had spiked numerous times beyond safe, and after taking it back apart, we found several clutch packs were absolutely destroyed, fluid burnt

Mind you, it wasn't a pump issue, because I Remachined the pump and installed new front pump gears that I surface ground to the correct height of the depth mic'ed cavity so it would have the absolute best line pressure it could make, then shimmed the pump assembly correctly until I got the correct endplay needed for the unit.

It had to be built again, same tolerances, same set up, but we just tossed the old converter back on , against really anyone's wishes, but the dumb kid wanted his bro truck back.

After that, the issues went away.

Suffice it to say, the issue seemed to lie in a faulty converter.

We originally thought maybe the boost valve was responsible, but it, and it's respective clip were okay.

 

[AuroraGirl]

Alright everyone, I got an update to this thing finally.

@1985c20, and @Vbb199
Temps are being measured from the pan, I've verified the gauge is accurate with a TIC. the gauge is not 100% dead on. But only shows 5-8 degrees high compared to the pan temp.
its not constantly running at 250. it would rise up to those temps then fall back down. Without having to shut things down, which tells me that my cooling is working.
Idle speed is 650rpm.
These temp issues were happening with normal every day driving, unloaded. Not hot rodding it, nothing out of the norm. on 45-55mph back roads.

I was confident something internally of the transmission is not working correctly, just what IDK. But something. I do still believe the TC is not locking up at all despite whatever the warranting mechanic shop says.

THE UPDATE:

I took the truck to the Transmission specialty shop, Sam (extremely knowledgeable and honest guy) says the fluid (Mostly brand new fluid as of a week ago or so now, when I did that drain and fill)
is toast, smells super burnt. I verified this myself. It smells burnt AF.

He took it for a drive and confirmed it is not only slipping occasionally on hard pulls but it also is not locking the TC.

He then asked me where the transmission came from, I told him the shop which installed it got it from a company in WA named TRC.
He then informs me that he worked for them, for about 2 weeks. He quit when he got tired of them telling him to throw transmissions back together with worn components in order to cut down on their cost per unit.
He informed me that as it is, the transmission is surviving because my cooling is working so well.
He then walked me through all of the upgrades that he does for the 700r4s and informed me that for him to rebuild it (like it needs) would be around $3800. But would not be able to do it until after the holidays. I am going to keep that in my back pocket right now.

I informed Revis (the warranting shop) this news and they said "bring it by and we'll take it out and see what is going on with it"
I am expecting them to replace it with another rebuilt trans.
When I get the truck back from them, probably in January, I'll see how it functions and decide just what I am going to end up doing with it.

is your truck by chance a 700r4 originally or was it perhaps a th350 originally?

Is your geometry for the TV cable correct, is what im getting at. actually, i forgot what you had for an engine... tbi..? Too many trucks and people lol