R12 Replacement

Hello -

Haven't posted in a while but through I would pick some brains on this. I was at a car show over the weekend (spectator not showing) and we were talking to someone showing that had the old R12 system still. My other half commented that you cannot get R12 anymore and if you do find it, it is EXTREMELY expensive. The owner of the vehicle stated that since the conversion to R134A, you can find it on Ebay for reasonable pricing. I have done some investigating and there is something out there call Enviro-Safe Arctic Air and comes in a kit with 4 cans of refrigerant, oil, seal and gauge. Has anyone every used this and if so, does it work.

Thanks

I'd read the fine print quite closely. It's probably propane or something similar. Real R12 is still hard to come by and expensive.

Why? 134 is available in most states and still not expensive.

Back of can says be careful with flammable substances but doesn't actually say what is in the can.

Hard Pass

To answer your question, I know of many guys driving 40-50 yr old cars that use this in their old York compressors (where an updated compressor wont fit) and they like it lot. But if there was the means to update it to a Sanden compressor and go with R134, I'd certainly pursue that option every time.

IIRC this is the stuff made in Canada - fwiw, several times in the last 10-15 yrs, the EPA has suspended shipping to the US for one reason or another.

My buddy has been the owner of a HVAC business for thirty years and recharged his ‘90 burb’s r12 system with r409. It’s not certified for auto ac, but is a suitable replacement for r12 in commercial low-temp equipment. It was MUCH colder than r134 and you could see visible frost blowing out of the dash vents. He ran it that way for a couple of years without issue and eventually sold the truck, ac still blowing cold.

R-12 NOS is still available though Craigslist. Demand has gone down as well as the price. Nothing will work better in a R-12 system than R-12. Make sure that its not Freeze12 or other replacement refrigerants from the time.

fast 99 said:

Why? 134 is available in most states and still not expensive.

Back of can says be careful with flammable substances but doesn't actually say what is in the can.

Hard Pass

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I think there’s more to it than just dumping 134a into an old R12 system, no?

Grit dog said:

I think there’s more to it than just dumping 134a into an old R12 system, no?

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Certainly, changing over to 134 has been done for 20 years at least. There is a lot of information on how to do it successfully. Refrigerant oil is different, seals, drier, orifice tube, replacing hoses and flushing is sometimes needed. Most of the work could be done in the backyard environment then get a shop to recharge it.

Using some unknown refrigerant is questionable at best. If that stuff is indeed flammable, how would you feel as a tech having a system catch fire? As a shop owner it might ruin a refrigerant recycler or contaminate it. 134a is still available in most places.

fast 99 said:

Certainly, changing over to 134 has been done for 20 years at least. There is a lot of information on how to do it successfully. Refrigerant oil is different, seals, drier, orifice tube, replacing hoses and flushing is sometimes needed. Most of the work could be done in the backyard environment then get a shop to recharge it.

Using some unknown refrigerant is questionable at best. If that stuff is indeed flammable, how would you feel as a tech having a system catch fire? As a shop owner it might ruin a refrigerant recycler or contaminate it. 134a is still available in most places.

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Another thing I don't like about flammable refrigerant, an evaporator leak could fill your interior with propane,who knows if it would light off,but I wouldn't like it. Or a condenser leak leaking 3lbs of propane in a garage with a gas water heater.

Ricko1966 said:

Another thing I don't like about flammable refrigerant, an evaporator leak could fill your interior with propane,who knows if it would light off,but I wouldn't like it. Or a condenser leak leaking 3lbs of propane in a garage with a gas water heater.

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While I agree I don't like the idea of using propane, it takes significantly less propane than freon to charge an AC system. It's generally 30-40% of the original R12. So if your system took 3lbs of R12 it would be closer to 1lb of propane.

It has been YEARS since I used the A/C (stays parked a lot). Compressor is original. I do believe there is a leak in the system that needs to be found as I remember having to have my dad (who was a mechanic) recharge it several times. I will discuss with my local mechanic and see what they say. Way back in the day, I hardly ever used it except when I was dressed for work and didn't want to show up a sopping mess. Otherwise, didn't use it. I am afraid the trick is finding a "competent shop" that is willing to do the minor conversion. Sorry, but with all the technology and computers now, I feel mechanics have gotten lazy if they cannot rely on the diagnostic wizard machine or the disposable mentally (i.e. easier to rip it out and replace with new).

I will go to a local car show and find someone with an original system and ask them where they went to have it converted to 134A, or what ever the now "legal" stuff is.

Project Farm on youtube has a video on vehicle a/c refridgerants.

It's a butane/propane mix, which works very well in an R-12 system at much lower pressures (less is needed). This means reduced load on the compressor. It's compatible with the mineral oils used with R-12. However, you don't want to mix it with R-12. If you switch to butane/propane you have to start with a flat system, meaning no pressurized freon -- it should be at atmospheric pressure. Interestingly you don't need to evacuate the system to a vacuum beforehand so a vacuum pump isn't necessary, just fill. It goes without saying that you should never intentionally vent freon to the atmosphere. The small cans of butane/propane are technically not allowed to be sold in the US for automotive use because they are not approved by DOT due to the flammability concerns, which in my view are unfounded. Your talking a very small quantity of butane/propane vs a tank of gasoline in your vehicle that is orders of magnitude more "dangerous" than the AC system from a fire standpoint.

R-12 usually sells for $25 a can of Craigslist. Sometimes it sells even cheaper when the person doesn't know the value. I buy it when it's reasonably priced.

Tried it. Works.