starting system

[Raider L]

Over the many years that I've had my '74 C10 the one problem that seems to keep cropping up from time to time, and is about the only failing with this year truck and for years after '74 is the column ignition switch.

I was studying the system in my factory maint. book and discovered that the way the ignition switch is set up with the neutral safety switch is actually designed in part to be a anti-theft system believe it or not. But anytime you see adjustment on a primary switch, that should be a dead give away that it's going to mess up from time to time. So what was wrong with the keyed start switch in the dash? To old timey? The engineers thought it would be cool to move the start switch into the column? Also, the steering column lock is also in the column. All this was moving towards all that we saw in the '80's and '90's cars and trucks with headlights, wipers, dimmer switch,and all that in the column.

But if you look at the diagram of the ignition switch and what goes on in the switch when you turn the key about the only thing that is happening is power is going to the lights even though some lights will work without the ignition switch being engaged they all come on when the ignition switch is on. But also the other switch being energized in the start system is through the starter wiring at the neutral safety switch.

I believe that I can isolate that wiring from the neutral safety switch, ignition switch and go back to a keyed switch in the dash so as to avoid the problems with that damn pesky column mounted ignition switch that I guess I'm having a problem with now. The truck won't start and that particular ignition switch has been in there for a very long time and has been adjusted several times both backward and forward in it's adjustment.

But there could be something else. When I was building the truck we discovered that the headers wouldn't clear the factory starter. We put in a TCI mini starter solving the problem. But the tech from TCI said to put in a diode in the "S" wire going to the starter. He said it would prevent power surges coming back up the wire from the starter that could cause problems with the wiring. It's just a preventative. That diode could be burned out not letting power get to the starter. Why I suspect it is when I put the remote start button in and turn the ignition switch to "on" the starter won't start. I'm going to put the new ignition switch on the column tomorrow and see. If it still won't start then it's that diode.

Does anyone have any ideas about making the conversion getting the starter out of that pesky column ignition switch?
Please advise. Thanks.

 

[C10MixMaster]

Over the many years that I've had my '74 C10 the one problem that seems to keep cropping up from time to time, and is about the only failing with this year truck and for years after '74 is the column ignition switch.

I was studying the system in my factory maint. book and discovered that the way the ignition switch is set up with the neutral safety switch is actually designed in part to be a anti-theft system believe it or not. But anytime you see adjustment on a primary switch, that should be a dead give away that it's going to mess up from time to time. So what was wrong with the keyed start switch in the dash? To old timey? The engineers thought it would be cool to move the start switch into the column? Also, the steering column lock is also in the column. All this was moving towards all that we saw in the '80's and '90's cars and trucks with headlights, wipers, dimmer switch,and all that in the column.

But if you look at the diagram of the ignition switch and what goes on in the switch when you turn the key about the only thing that is happening is power is going to the lights even though some lights will work without the ignition switch being engaged they all come on when the ignition switch is on. But also the other switch being energized in the start system is through the starter wiring at the neutral safety switch.

I believe that I can isolate that wiring from the neutral safety switch, ignition switch and go back to a keyed switch in the dash so as to avoid the problems with that damn pesky column mounted ignition switch that I guess I'm having a problem with now. The truck won't start and that particular ignition switch has been in there for a very long time and has been adjusted several times both backward and forward in it's adjustment.

But there could be something else. When I was building the truck we discovered that the headers wouldn't clear the factory starter. We put in a TCI mini starter solving the problem. But the tech from TCI said to put in a diode in the "S" wire going to the starter. He said it would prevent power surges coming back up the wire from the starter that could cause problems with the wiring. It's just a preventative. That diode could be burned out not letting power get to the starter. Why I suspect it is when I put the remote start button in and turn the ignition switch to "on" the starter won't start. I'm going to put the new ignition switch on the column tomorrow and see. If it still won't start then it's that diode.

Does anyone have any ideas about making the conversion getting the starter out of that pesky column ignition switch?
Please advise. Thanks.

Your going to create more problems for yourself moving the ignition switch , its not a simple 1960's version with 3 wires lol. Personally I have never had the electrical part of the switch fail or need adjustment on any of my gm vehicles. The diode seams like a waste of time on a 74 with no electronics , In the unlikely event that starter has enough feedback to cause wiring problems you need to get rid of of it.

 

[Ricko1966]

If the starter won't spin with a remote start switch its not going to spin by going to a dash switch. Do you have 12v to the starter main lug. Good connections at battery and starter. Do you have a ground strap from battery to frame one from battery to body and one from frame to engine block? If you have everything I just mentioned and starter won't spin you have a starter problem. If you want to go around the column switch for the starter that's real easy. Push but to starter switch mounted where ever you want. 1 wire to starter main lug other wire to starter engagement terminal. If you mount the starter switch where it can be operated with your left hand and ignition switch with the right hand there is a bonus feature. If you are running lots of initial timing you can spin the motor first then hit ignition.

 

[Matt69olds]

Can you explain your problem a little further? Does it not crank when you turn the key? Does it not crank when hot? Crank slowly?

I’m trying to understand why you would ever need a diode in-line with the crank wire. Considering the amount of current the pull-in winding needs, it would have to be a pretty massive diode to be reliable. Once you release the key, the purple wire becomes isolated both at the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. While it’s no secret that relays and solenoids do create “fly back” current as the magnetic fields collapse (that’s why you see small diodes across the plug on A/C compressor connectors) if the wire isn’t connected to anything the voltage can’t cause issues. GM has used that staryer circuit and design for over 50 years and didn’t need a diode.

Do you have a tilt steering column? If so, the rack gear may be worn or cracked. If so, the starter will engage, but only after turning the key much further than normal. The rack looks like this :

You must be registered for see images attach

Other than pivot pins loosening up, or occasional turn signal switch problems, the steering column is pretty reliable. It seems like the problem columns are ones that have been worked on by someone without the correct tools to properly disassemble and reassemble them.

 

[Raider L]

Matt69olds,

Good to hear from you, and thanks for the comment. Yeah, all I know is what the tech guy from TCI told me and that's what I did. Why, I have no idea other than what you said about the "fly back" which I understand but have never heard of that before. He may have said something about that but I don't recall. Forget about it, really because I found out what and why the starter wouldn't even start with a remote switch attached and that was, if you've seen the photos on this site of my column you would have guessed what the starting problem was and my column condition was why the truck wouldn't start and that is this.

The last thing left to check was the "neutral safety switch". I suspected that it could be the problem because it may have been getting out of position for some time. I would be turning right and suddenly the engine would cut off as if I turned the key off. I would put it in Park and it would crank right up. That's the hint as to my problem, or was the problem. I took the neutral safety switch off so I could look to see what position it was in. I made sure the shifter was in Park and when I took the neutral safety switch off I have no idea what gear it was in, it was kinda in the middle which would be maybe in Drive, but it wasn't in Park. So I slid the "tang" over to the Park position and pulled on the rod that goes into the side of the ignition switch and the starter engaged.

I left the neutral safety switch unattached and got out from under the dash, sat in the seat and started the truck. Not ever experiencing this problem before that had to do with starting and have had experience with all the other problems, starter going out like slowing down, battery problems, the ignition switch having problems, loose battery cable, etc. I had no idea what it could have been this time. It just angers me that I spent money on stuff I didn't need to in the process of elimination trying to stumble on the problem.

I've never had to fool with that neutral safety switch other than when I rebuilt the truck 25 years ago I replaced it only for the reason it had been in the truck since 1974 when the truck left the factory. I know I will never have this problem again because I'm getting ready to replace my column that I bought from bennyt on this site. That way when I have a good column the neutral safety switch won't ever be out of position again. I still would like to replace that ignition switch though. I can't believe people haven't had problems with that stupid ignition switch on the column. Since I've owned this truck bought in 1981 I've probably adjusted the one in it four or five times and over the years replaced one three or four of them.

 

[Raider L]

Matt69olds,

Whats funny, Matt, is my column doesn't even have those parts left in it, ha, ha, ha. After those guys broke into my truck and attempted to steal it, I think they used a hammer on the column upper housing and busted all those parts to pieces. I found them laying on the floor board along with chunks of the upper column housing. So I examined what I had left and just screwed and bolted it together enough so I could still drive, carefully at best.

This column I bought used, has all those parts. What I plan on doing is rebuild my column from all the parts from my (new) column. That way I'll at least be able to hand it over to the shops of the work the truck needs I can't do myself and they will be able to drive the thing in and out and around their shop. I think if I was to hand it over to them like it is they would refuse to take it. Especially the trans. overhaul shop would have to test drive it and they wouldn't be able to do that like the column is now. I'm the only one who can drive it because it's so dangerous to steer. I'm the only one who knows how to do it.

Oh yeah, I ordered one of those Lokar TH350 shift rod kits for my trans. so I can get rid of all that birds nest of rods and springs and brackets down there. That way all there will be is one rod coming off the column shift lever down to the trans shifting thing down there and the kit has a alum. arm the rod attaches to. You can look it up on Lokar's site. It's pretty cool and you know how it is with customizing, it never ends. I love doing that stuff with my truck. Improving what I've got to make it perform better, be easier to work on, and last longer with less maint.

 

[Snoots]

I have one of those Lokar kits but haven't installed it. I've read where you MAY have to bend it a little at the base of the firewall to clear. I can't confirm that . . . yet.

 

[Raider L]

Matt69olds, Snoots,

Ya'll want to see the column I've been risking my life and vehicle:

Go to "Suspension, Steering & Brakes", scroll down to title "Whacked Column", Raider L, then go to Pg. 3 and you'll see what I've been having to deal with from those guys trying to steal my truck.

As long as it was holding together I just kept driving it and occasionally going to my local wreaking yards to look for a truck that might have a column like mine. People in this part of the country do a lot of off road hunting and need these kind of trucks and/or parts for the ones they've got and you just can't find any intact anymore.

 

[Raider L]

I have a column for my truck now and will start pulling my old one probably tomorrow when I come back from my monthly doctor visit

 

[Raider L]

C10MixMaster,

Yeah, you're right it is a bucket of worms under there and at least I do have a copy of the schematic out of my factory maint. manual. Looking at what I'd have to do, I think I would be redesigning the whole thing. I don't want to do that. I just want to move the ignition switch out from under the dash and move somekind of thing to some more convinent location, you know? I don't want to redesign the electrical system just so it's easier to start, and I wouldn't have to tear up my back and messed up shoulders to change the adjustment on the ignition switch because the truck won't start unless I do. I don't know but from your post about not having to adjust the ignition switch on any of you GM vehicle's? Maybe it's just some quirk mine was born with because I've had this truck since 1981 and have had to replace about three or four of these ignition switches and about every four or five years I will need to adjust the switch in order to start the truck.

You got me, man.

 

[Raider L]

Guys, when I was rebuilding my truck I took all that factory tape off all the wiring under the dash. Then I cleaned every wire free of any adhesive. Then using the schematic I grouped wires that went to whatever together and zip tied them together in groups like I'd seen in the planes I worked on when I worked for the airlines as a aircraft mechanic. I did this so if I ever needed to find a wire it wouldn't take long to fish it out of whichever bundle.

At the factory they just put them altogether. They didn't want you to get into the wiring. They wanted you to go to the dealer and have them work on it. I did the same thing with the wiring in the engine compartment. I took that huge bundle of wire that went to the starter that ran alongside of the pass. side valve cover of the engine, down the front next to the water pump, and down under the fuel pump and back under the engine to the starter. I thought, "What the hell?" I thought, "Why didn't they come right down from where it all comes out of the harness that runs along the firewall then does what I described, and instead just drop down like it does and just go right to the starter. So that's what I did and cut and spliced the wire near the starter saving the original starter connections. When I got through I had cut out 4 feet of excess wiring! The only thing I had to do was wrap some hi-heat insulation, that is a fiberglass fluffy like stuff with a coating of RTV on one side, around the wiring as it got near the header tube at the back of the engine. It's been fine all this time. I put some of that fiberglass heat wrap on the fuel line as it runs along the frame right there near the engine, as it comes out from inside the frame. There's a header tube right there to. I did it so as to stop any vapor lock from the heat from the header tubes.

When I get the column out I'm going to find that alternator wire that makes a light on the dash come on as soon as you start the engine. That light comes on until the alt. field is energized and then it goes off. It tells you the alt. is working. I can't remember but it tells you something about the alt. if it doesn't come on at all, and it tells you something if it won't go out. I know that little sucker is in the wires that go up to all those starter wires or in the bundle going to the start wires.