Want to build a good horsepower, good fuel economy engine for a 1978 c20 with stock 350. I don't know much and need help.

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peats

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I've had a couple of short c`10's. AL intake, long tube hedders, q`jet, RV cam, 6cyl gears. Always good power and 10 mpg. Nobody builds a squarebody for mileage. Find a corolla or civic for mileage.
 

racprops

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I am 75 and starred working on cars in 1965.

You would wise to read this book: “Trailer Life's Rx for Rv Performance and Mileage Paperback” It is one of the best books on what to do.

It covers cams, carbs gear ratios ETC.

I am building a 383 for a 93 Chevy G20 Van.

My goals are the same as your MPG and Power. Three G20 Vans over 28 years of driving and always 14MPG best, I am shooting for 20/25MPG. Last Van was Throttle Body injected with a 4L60E transmission and standard 3.43 rear end and IT got the same damn 14MPG.

TORQUE IS KING, when moving nearly any truck. And you want your cruse speed to be at or close to your engines torque peek.

I am running 193 first swirl port heads, a mild can with Rhords lifters that give me a milder cam at low rpm and a stock power at higher RPMS.

I am running a 85 to 92 Camaro/Corvette TPI as they make around 30% MORE torque/HP and MPG over any stock carb.

This engine will never see 6K and will run out power at around 4500RPMs, which all my stock cars for my whole life has done.

And I am building drive train for MPG, SO I am having a 4L80E transmission BUILT and behind it I added a US Gear Dual Range Overdrive. This gives me a strong 4/5 speed transmission.
For deadhead trips I can go into 5th and get all the MPGs it can give.

For towing I can lock the 4L80 into 3rd (saving the OD) and shift in OD 4th, and get better MPG as well over running in 3rd all the way.

This is the strongest transmission you can find, only a heavy duty Allison can beat them.

There is a lot more I am doing but this the high lights.

Rich

Below is a projected HP and Torque curve of my engine and gearing chart.
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Gilmore

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Ok, I have to be the guy to ask. Since he is talking about making some very significant upgrades to his motor to get MPG along with his low-end torque and power, would he be better off throwing in a 4-speed transmission with a good torque converter instead to help with his power vs. MPG balance? I swapped the 6.2L Diesel to a High output 350 and my MPG is terrible but I don't drive a SB for the MPG. I can say driving 70 down the highway at 1800 RPMs is a pretty good feeling though and at cruising speed my MPG is decent. Thoughts?
 

JBswth

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You can't get high horsepower and good mileage at the same time. If you want lots of low RPM torque, you will have to forget about lots of top end horsepower. Ditto for good mileage. Aggressive cams mean poor mileage at low speeds. If you do a lot of towing and/or load your truck up with heavy items, low end torque is more important than lots of horsepower. Yes, a big-block will give you good low RPM torque and lots of horsepower just because of it's size, but those cubes will have to be fed. A lot. In the late 50s and the 60s, you could run ultra-high compression to get the some of the best of both worlds, but we had 100+ octane gas back then. We don't have that nowadays.

J.B.
 

Craig Nedrow

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350, 454, 6.2 Detroit
I am always interested in these conversations. Engine thermal efficiency usually is less than 100%, but not always. The use of computers are a help, because many engine dynamics can be controlled precisely. AR ratios, timing curve, etc. some old car had an overdrive, which was touted to get better mileage, and did. SO, how is engine efficiency made better? Raising the compression ratio helps, in a number of ways. Piston volume, head volume, or by some type of pressure greater than atmospheric, like a turbocharger. The newer rings on pistons are much thinner then the old school rings = less friction. You have many options only if you have an unlimited budget. Budget will dictate what can be done. Lower numeric gears will help, IE going from 4.10 to 3.55, but that can be a two edged sword as well , depending on what rpm your engine is most efficient at, which is, in a basic sense, where the torque and hp cross. It won’t be at 2000 rpms. It is a compromise. Remember higher compression will eventually require higher quality gas, personally, in Wa St. gas prices are very high. So to recap, raise compression no more that 9.5 for reg gas with a short overlap highest lift flat tappet cam you can buy, and yes Rhodes are good lifters. Change the gears to fit your cruse goals, IE 2000 rpm cruse will require 33 inch tires, 2.81 gears, or overdrive. If going for overdrive, 4l80e, my trans of choice. But the most important thing, is, study, read, educate yourself. I have tons of books, many obsolete now, but David Visard on YouTube and his books are a wealth of info. In the end hope it is fun, it’s supposed to be.
 

Craig Nedrow

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i'm like Perry (Idahovette) always looking for more power, heck with gas milage, but at a cost.


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Factor in tires......
 

Quinn_Hanifan

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These are the most helpful to me personally so far, I'll do more research, and get some reading done. I think I'm actually starting to understand more of the technical stuff a lot better now. I've made up my mind and I'm going to focus on more tourque and MPG (granted yes I know SB isnt great for MPG) but id like it to be my only vehicle for now and maybe later when I can afford more, ill make the higher power upgrades and such. is there a difference between the 4L80 and the 4L80E? That sounds like a great option along with a lower gear ratio, better cam, better lifters, higher compression, and better piston rings, not sure what to do about an intake manifold and how much of a difference could and aftermarket carb vs fuel injection make mileage wise? Also What is the difference between hydraulic cams and solid cams? How do i figure the short overlap and high lift tappet, like numbers and such so I know what to look for exactly? should I look into the exhaust system or say headers? would that help performance or just waste money?
 

Quinn_Hanifan

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Ok so I answered my own question I think, 4L80E is electronic transmission and 4L80 is not? or is 4L80 not even a thing as in there is only an electronic transmission?
 

Quinn_Hanifan

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Also, i believe I have a 700R4 transmission on a 91 3500 that I'm parting out. would that be any good for my goals? or should I sell and go with the 4L80E? I currently have a TH400 3-speed Automatic no OD on my C20.
 
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Craig Nedrow

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Quinn keep that 700r4, it’s a good transmission for what you want to do, perfect really. The 4l80e is an od th400 very strong, but I just use them to last under higher hp rigs. I did a build like you want years age, 20 over 350 so 355 hyperutectec speed pro pistons, weiand intake, Holly 650 carb ( Holly fan), 1 5/8 headers. Used 194 heads ported like David Vizard book showed me. It was really fun for me, learned lots, compression was 9.2. I balance all my motors, 2 gr or less, ind. standard, and dyno 328 hp and 340 torque. Runs good on 87 octain with total advance at 34 degrees. Cam 230 dur short overlap 550+ lift. Still have that motor, runs like a champ, been in three rigs now. I am a journeyman machinist, and did some of the work, but you could buy a David visard, enjoy learning and reading, port your own heads find parts on Craigslist etc, and build a solid long lasting motor that it cheap, reliable, and fun. If you want could take som pic of good books and etc.
 

Quinn_Hanifan

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Quinn keep that 700r4, it’s a good transmission for what you want to do, perfect really. The 4l80e is an od th400 very strong, but I just use them to last under higher hp rigs. I did a build like you want years age, 20 over 350 so 355 hyperutectec speed pro pistons, weiand intake, Holly 650 carb ( Holly fan), 1 5/8 headers. Used 194 heads ported like David Vizard book showed me. It was really fun for me, learned lots, compression was 9.2. I balance all my motors, 2 gr or less, ind. standard, and dyno 328 hp and 340 torque. Runs good on 87 octain with total advance at 34 degrees. Cam 230 dur short overlap 550+ lift. Still have that motor, runs like a champ, been in three rigs now. I am a journeyman machinist, and did some of the work, but you could buy a David visard, enjoy learning and reading, port your own heads find parts on Craigslist etc, and build a solid long lasting motor that it cheap, reliable, and fun. If you want could take som pic of good books and etc.
This is perfect, thank you so much! pictures of the book would be appreciated but ill make sure ill read it myself aswell.
 

Quinn_Hanifan

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Whats the difference between high rise and low rise for the intake?
 

Craig Nedrow

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The height, used more on single plane, you want a dual plane for the street, Weiand, Edelbrock, I buy american made, Airgap would be great,


Pick a street type, and RPM range to fit the motor.
 

Quinn_Hanifan

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okay, and also what's the difference between Hydraulic and solid cams? and roller vs Tappet?
 

Craig Nedrow

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Solid is just that, hydraulic has an oil cushion, like a tiny hydraulic cylinder, (gross explanation,) Roller have....rollers. Each have advantages and disadvantages. For your build, a flat tappet, (VS a "Roller",) Hyd would be my choice..as this type is much less work to maintain. Hydraulic cams will not have as much lift, as either of the other two, but plenty for your build. For simplicity, IF you are going to change the cam, get a kit with the lifters and pushrods. Pushrod rod length etc, is a big deal, but your mostly stock build will probably, maybe use the stock length. Some of my books, I refer to them often.

 

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