Sticky thread for lowering C10s?

[ChuckN]

As others have said, mixing and matching of parts is the way to go to really dial it in where you want it. My truck was lowered when I bought it. I believe it's a Belltech notch/flip kit and McGaughy's 2.5" spindles up front. When I rebuilt the front end, I used big block springs and trimmed 1 coil off, so the truck was roughly 4.5/6 then.

This is before the LS swap, trimmed big block springs:

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Then after the LS swap, the truck sat nose high since it was so much lighter than the old small block, so I grabbed my original springs and trimmed them 1/4 coil at a time until I was happy with where it sat. That got me to about 5.5" up front but now the rear was too high.

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So I added a 2" shackle out back. Had to trim the bed brace for them to clear but now the truck sits much better, now it's roughly 5.5/8". I'd love to borrow some rallies from one of my buddies to see what it looks like this low on rallies:

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I will say at 5.5" up front, I scrubbed like a **** with both the 235/75/15s and the 255/40/20s. So I added SloshTubz up front, now I have tons of room. No matter what wheel/tire combo you're going to run, that's the way to go so you don't have to worry about scrubbing.

Gorgeous truck! I was wondering, when they make lowering springs do they increase the spring rate, or are the springs just shorter? Thanks for posting!

 

[bluex]

If you do one I'll certainly sticky it. I think your knowledge on the subject is superior to most and would be a good bit of knowledge transfer to show folks how to piece it together with the right pieces and not necessarily just buying a kit off xyz website.

I haven't forgotten about this. I'm 5 pages deep on a word document so I can copy/paste an get it all posted at one time. Hopefully I'll have it up sometime this week.

 

[Old77]

I haven't forgotten about this. I'm 5 pages deep on a word document so I can copy/paste an get it all posted at one time. Hopefully I'll have it up sometime this week.

When you do, make sure and create a new, fresh thread for it and text me when it's posted and I'll sticky it ASAP.

 

[Ricko1966]

My opinion is go drop spindles that way your front suspension/steering geometry stays as the factory,who spend tons designing it intended. I know I shouldn't have answered,but if you cut springs your spring rate will be wrong and your A arms and tierods will not be at the angles designed from the factory.

 

[bluex]

My opinion is go drop spindles that way your front suspension/steering geometry stays as the factory,who spend tons designing it intended. I know I shouldn't have answered,but if you cut springs your spring rate will be wrong and your A arms and tierods will not be at the angles designed from the factory.

You're right about the spindles but wrong on the springs.

Cutting the spring only 1 coil isn't going to affect the rate or throw the geometry off so bad it can't be realigned. More than 1 coil gets sketchy the more you go an can cause issues as well.

Heating the springs with a torch to lower it will completely destroy the spring rate an cause the issues you mention. Most people who do this also won't use a drop spindle so they try an get 3-4" of drop all from the heated spring an it's really bad then.

Almost every spring is designed with a "dead" coil that is there to make a certain ride or install height work at the desired rate an coil size.

 

[Ricko1966]

Hmmm. A dead coil is a new one on me I used to know the formula for spring rates diameter x number of coils x diameter of the coils divided by 12 m&m s =x see I don't remember the formula,but never heard about a dead coil. Cool, Spindles are my go to now,fixed amount of drop and stock steering geometry.
Read This not challenging you,trying to clarify something for myself.

The Math Behind Cutting Coil Springs - EATON Detroit Spring

Does cutting a coil change the spring rate?

www.eatondetroitspring.com

Now is the dead coil the end coil which is touching as they say.

 

[Elliot W]

Bluex I got the rear struts you recommended but they can with different hardware than stock where the strut connects to the frame. The problem with the new hardware is that if I install it in place of the stock hardware, I’m concerned it won’t be snug up against the frame and this will cause bending of the hardware or distortion of the frame hole. Should I install the new hardware or use the old stock one? Is the stock surface too rusty for the new shock bushing?

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[TotalyHucked]

Gorgeous truck! I was wondering, when they make lowering springs do they increase the spring rate, or are the springs just shorter? Thanks for posting!

Thanks! Typically, drop springs are also a softer rate. That's why I went with the big block springs when I still had the small block in it. I like a firmer ride, the truck "pogo'd" too much with the factory small block springs and also did it with the aftermarket drop springs I tried.

 

[Ricko1966]

Lowering springs are almost always stiffer than stock springs. The shocks control dampening,not the springs,that's the pogo. And just for fun too stiff of springs can limit weight transfer too much and you end up with a car that oversteers or under steers depending on which end is too stiff.The reason for the lowering springs being stiffer is really simple you put on a short,soft spring and your truck is going to bottom out much easier.

 

[Ricko1966]

Cutting the spring only 1 coil isn't going to affect the rate or throw the geometry off so bad it can't be realigned.

I am not talking about alignment angles I'm talking about the angles of the control arms and tie rods,incorrect angles end up with cars that change toe and camber on bumps.Incorrect geometry will give you bump steer and strange tire wear.Anything that swings in an arc,let's use a teeter toter as an example when it is level with the ground so it has its most up and down movement on just either side of that. At the top or bottom of the arc the side to side motion is increased and the up and down decreases. So you get things to low you are not in the sweet spot for up and down. Your in the spot where the tires are pulling in on bumps.Now the tie rods if they are not at correct angle to change length as the tires pull in the tie rods push or pull the toe out of spec. Some cars will also have big camber changes as the bottom of the tire is pushed out.Same with putting a big cam in your motor and not shortening the pushrods. The rockers come up the same amount but go down further.Sure you can adjust it to run,but your pushing the rockers past center, you lose some lift due to the side to side motion,and you put unnecessary pressure on the valve guides.A little is acceptable,but
not Ideal. A lot is bad.

 

[bluex]

Bluex I got the rear struts you recommended but they can with different hardware than stock where the strut connects to the frame. The problem with the new hardware is that if I install it in place of the stock hardware, I’m concerned it won’t be snug up against the frame and this will cause bending of the hardware or distortion of the frame hole. Should I install the new hardware or use the old stock one? Is the stock surface too rusty for the new shock bushing?

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It will work just fine. That style stud comes with a locking nut which is another reason I like using them. Just get them as tight as possible and use RED lcctite on the large nut holding the stud to the frame. Use Blue on the nut that secures the shock.

I generally don't change the studs if they are tight an there's no damage to the frame. The old one should be fine too if you'd rather use it but the new one will fit an tighten up just fine.

 

[bluex]

Cutting the spring only 1 coil isn't going to affect the rate or throw the geometry off so bad it can't be realigned.

I am not talking about alignment angles I'm talking about the angles of the control arms and tie rods,incorrect angles end up with cars that change toe and camber on bumps.Incorrect geometry will give you bump steer and strange tire wear.Anything that swings in an arc,let's use a teeter toter as an example when it is level with the ground so it has its most up and down movement on just either side of that. At the top or bottom of the arc the side to side motion is increased and the up and down decreases. So you get things to low you are not in the sweet spot for up and down. Your in the spot where the tires are pulling in on bumps.Now the tie rods if they are not at correct angle to change length as the tires pull in the tie rods push or pull the toe out of spec. Some cars will also have big camber changes as the bottom of the tire is pushed out.Same with putting a big cam in your motor and not shortening the pushrods. The rockers come up the same amount but go down further.Sure you can adjust it to run,but your pushing the rockers past center, you lose some lift due to the side to side motion,and you put unnecessary pressure on the valve guides.A little is acceptable,but
not Ideal. A lot is bad.

I'm not going to get in a debate over all this with you if that's what you're after. For what we are discussing in this thread (off the shelf parts that have been around over 40 yrs in some cases) these are not concerns people should have.

You only need to worry about bump steer an Ackerman angles if your HIGHLY modifying the suspension ex: narrowed control arms, pancaked crossmember etc. Otherwise this stuff just isn't an issue. Camber an toe changes are DESIGNED into this type of suspension with unequal length a-arms. It's going to happen at stock height or with a 5" drop.

We obviously don't know each other or our backgrounds an experiences so your welcome to have your opinions an I'm probably not going to change them.

I've been modifying and driving these trucks for over 25 yrs at this point. I know what works an what doesn't. All my recommendations are based off years of trial an error an real world results. Take it or leave it, I have plenty of friends an now customers who are very happy with the end result of their truck after using my recommendations.

 

[Elliot W]

It will work just fine. That style stud comes with a locking nut which is another reason I like using them. Just get them as tight as possible and use RED lcctite on the large nut holding the stud to the frame. Use Blue on the nut that secures the shock.

I generally don't change the studs if they are tight an there's no damage to the frame. The old one should be fine too if you'd rather use it but the new one will fit an tighten up just fine.

Bluex....thank you! I'll give it a shot using the new ones, just wanted to make sure I'm on track to your recommended parts install. I'm installing the rear struts now at stock height since its a lot easier to work under the truck before its lowered and it needed struts (didn't have any when I got it).

 

[Ricko1966]

You are correct,what you have done and do probably works fine for a truck just driving point a to b no real cornering loads etc. Most of my experience has been autocross ,porsches,volkswagons,formula vees,formula ford's.Some street stocks and asphalt modifieds even had a sprint car once.So I'm kinda anal about geometry whether it's suspension or valve train. Obviously you know some stuff,most people don't know what Akerman is. If you lower a 911 2 inches you will have bump steer unless you relocate the rack to get the angles right. The principles are the same just not all cars will be as tolerant to changes.

 

[ChuckN]

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All back together! Thanks for the info. I appreciate y'all. New pump and low pressure line installed, buttoned up. I'm surprised I can type, my hands haven't been warm for days it seems.