Starting Issue

[Scott91370]

Issue started out of the blue. We would start the truck every couple of days just to keep fluids moving - it has yet to be driven since it's not done being built. Started fine one day then the next just a click from the starter. Nothing changed from the day that it work to the next day. Went out today to troubleshoot

1) Pulled starter - solenoid activates and motor spins with 12v applied. Tested second starter, same results.
2) +12v wire from battery to starter tight.
3) There is a 2nd wire from the starter where the battery wire connects that goes through the harness into the cab of the truck.
4) Ignition wire from cab to start is tight.
5) Ground wire from battery goes to alternator bracket and truck frame. From same bolt to body. There is now a ground wire from the passenger head to the firewall.

If I turn the key to start and hold it for more than a couple of seconds the solenoid clicks then the ground wire gets HOT and smoke from the starter. Happens with both starters.

I am at a total loss and would appreciate any input you have.

 

[AKguy]

I would start suspecting the ignition switch.

 

[SirRobyn0]

The smoke is concerning. Both starters will smoke when trying to turn the engine over? If that is correct I'd try to turn the engine over manually with a socket and bar to make sure it isn't locked up for some reason. Next I'd be looking at that ground. Make sure the battery is fully charged. Sometimes a 1/2 dead battery will make a good clunk, cause the electrical to get hot but not crank. Hopefully this helps.

 

[Scott91370]

@AKhuy - when you say ignition switch, I'm guessing you mean in the cab? When I turn it I do get voltage to the wire on the starter solenoid

I didn't hold the key on the first starter to see if it would smoke.
I thought the same about the engine being locked but it turns with a breaker bar.
Battery was at 13.1v
Ground should be good. I get a reading on my volt meter everywhere I tested. I ran a long + jumper wire to the meter and touched it at different places on the truck. All were 13v.

It's crazy that it just started out of nowhere. I think I will pull the wire harness from the starter tomorrow and make sure I didn't melt anything then go from there.

I di appreciate the input so far.

 

[SirRobyn0]

@AKhuy - when you say ignition switch, I'm guessing you mean in the cab? When I turn it I do get voltage to the wire on the starter solenoid

I didn't hold the key on the first starter to see if it would smoke.
I thought the same about the engine being locked but it turns with a breaker bar.
Battery was at 13.1v
Ground should be good. I get a reading on my volt meter everywhere I tested. I ran a long + jumper wire to the meter and touched it at different places on the truck. All were 13v.

It's crazy that it just started out of nowhere. I think I will pull the wire harness from the starter tomorrow and make sure I didn't melt anything then go from there.

I di appreciate the input so far.

Here's a quick test for you. Jump across the terminals on the starter, that would be the terminal with the big wire from the battery and the little wire from the ignition switch. If it cranks over ok like that then it's definitely in the electrical system, on the ignition switch circuit. I'm not saying what is or isn't the problem, but I have never seen a bad ignition switch cause a ground or starter to smoke, that sounds like the starter is drawing to much power, or there is a connection issue either with the main battery cable to starter or ground, causing an increase in resistance. All the ignition switch does is send 12 volts to the solenoid, much like a relay works.

 

[Camar068]

I was thinking positive/negative wires to the battery. Corrosion can build up inside the wire and you can't see it thus causing a "larger" load on the circuit.

 

[Scott91370]

Here's a quick test for you. Jump across the terminals on the starter...
All the ignition switch does is send 12 volts to the solenoid, much like a relay works.

I thought about that last night as well. It's the one thing I didn't do. I will climb under it and give this a try using a jumper/switch.
I do agree with the ignition switch theory though. And since the only time i am getting 12v at the solenoid is when I turn the key to start I don't think it can be that.

I was thinking positive/negative wires to the battery. Corrosion can build up inside the wire and you can't see it thus causing a "larger" load on the circuit.

I didn't think about corrosion on the inside of the wire. I do know the connections are all clean - I wire brushed every contact point.


I will tell you this. Working on a truck that is approximately 8" lower than stock and the frame is less than 6" off the ground kind of stinks. Looks great but getting it high enough with 2 jack stands and a jack under it to feel safe takes some of the fun out of it.

I'll let you know what I find.

 

[SirRobyn0]

I was thinking positive/negative wires to the battery. Corrosion can build up inside the wire and you can't see it thus causing a "larger" load on the circuit.

I agree with this as well and it seems to me side terminal batteries are a little more prone to playing the hidden corrosion trick.

 

[Raider L]

@Scott91370, That's a good idea from @SirRobyn0 to jump the starter to see if it will crank. Don't forget to put the key in the "ON" position just to get power to the starter. Do you have a remote starter switch by any chance? I wouldn't want you to get shocked. I've had this problem before myself but I can't remember what I did other than replacing the starter. One time when I got under the truck to check the starter, the big wire had burned clean off the terminal. And like you, it started just minutes before and had not been any kind of a problem. Then the next time I turned the key....nothing. This last time it happened it was the neutral safety switch down at the bottom of the column had moved out of line to be started. Other times it's happened it was the ignition switch on the column under the dash. Have you checked that yet? Don't mean to hijack your post I was just hoping any of this would be of help.

You have to loosen the two small screws to slide the ignition switch just a little so it makes a new place of contact. It can make it do what yours is doing now also. You turn the key and nothing when before it was fine.

 

[Scott91370]

I don't have an actual switch but can fab one up so I don't get the full 600 amps through my arm - I didn't even think about getting zapped!

I haven't had time to climb under or pull the wiring harness but I have a feeling I will be finding something melted, there was quite a bit of smoke.

Mine is an 85 so it doesn't have a neutral safety but instead it has a key lock out which will not let the key turn past the run position unless it is in P or N.

Not a hijack, helpful input.

 

[Raider L]

@Scott91370,

Yeah, I didn't know what year it was. Well let us know what you find. You never know who it will help regardless what year it is.

 

[BRetty]

@Scott91370 said:

I will tell you this. Working on a truck that is approximately 8" lower than stock and the frame is less than 6" off the ground kind of stinks. Looks great but getting it high enough with 2 jack stands and a jack under it to feel safe takes some of the fun out of it.
​

Oh, brutha, do I hear you. Even with a jack, jack stands and a pallet jack, I can barely get her back to normal ride height to slither under and try to ID my melted TC350C lockup wiring. (took a month to figure out the trans was from an '81, back-fit on my '73 along with the dash.)

(Which, BTW, thanks for your wiring diagram and firewall pics, your mystery connectors and wires are exaclty like mine were/are. I'll post a pic of mine and PM you with a question.)

If you think it sucks even with jacks on the the nice cozy cold garage floor or friendly gravel driveway, imagine NO JACK, burning hot busted exhaust pipes, at night, in the breakdown lane with freeway traffic 24" away. (This is a thread about your starter, so I'll put rest of story HERE....)

To your original question:

I had a lot of starting problems at first. To really fix that, I

-- Replaced the battery terminals,
-- Trimmed the exposed ends of the battery and starter and alt cables and grounds and stripped them back a couple inches
-- (bandaged with heat shrink a couple bare patches where wires had been right by manifold)
-- Soaked them with De-Oxit and wire brushed away the remaining crud,
-- Crimped on new copper lugs or OEM connector for alternator
-- Replaced the power distribution terminal(s) on the firewall with new clean posts and new ring connectors for the wires there
--Hooked it back up with at least SOME cable clamps to secure the starter wires, vs NONE.

It just takes a couple hrs and $25 worth of parts, and it's the Only Way to be Sure. Or at least Sure it's not the Wiring.

BRetty

PS -- Of course you can do all that, and feel all proactive and confident, and may even be humming "Like a Rock...!" under your breath, and thinking that a $5,000 Snap-on toolbox would look great in your garage, if you had a garage, instead of a just a tiny shared parking space that's totally useless for a longbed ... but if the 45-year-old power connector (*) just drops out of your distributor one afternoon, rock-solid restored reliable starter system won't help you at all.....

* -- That is behind the distributor, and plugs *UP* into it, and is right against the firewall about 400' away, and that you have to remove to air intake to even see, and climb over the fender and squat on your steering column to reach

 

[Scott91370]

said:


If you think it sucks even with jacks on the the nice cozy cold garage floor or friendly gravel driveway, imagine NO JACK, burning hot busted exhaust pipes, at night, in the breakdown lane with freeway traffic 24" away. (This is a thread about your starter, so I'll put rest of story HERE....)

That would be the worth!! Any hopefully this never happens to my daughter once w get her out in it.

I will keep all your mentions in mind. I haven't had a chance to climb around the truck, we're doing so much to it right now and had company over the weekend.

Thanks!

 

[Scott91370]

Ok everybody that decided to waste time helping me, I greatly appreciate it and I am totally sorry.

Decided to take a few days off, as many people suggested, and then work on the truck most of today. I took the 'extra' starter off and had it tested. Everything on it worked as it should. I would have bet a paycheck on it that I had tried it in the truck with no luck. We guess what...this apparently hadn't tried it. I put it in and she cranked like nobody's business. I've been like crazy trying to figure this out. I surely deserve a big ol'


Again, thanks to everyone that replied, we can mark this one solved.