starter rebuilding - advice needed

[SirRobyn0]

Ok so I replaced my starter about a year ago. I bought a high quality new unit and I've never been happy with it. It cranks the engine over just fine, but it's a bit noisy when cranking you know it doesn't mesh quite right with the flywheel. It's not terrible, and I've tried shimming it and measuring the drive to flywheel clearance and it's decent but not great.

So I want to go though my old starter. I should say I have no desire to go to a mini-starter or vortec era starter I want to run an original style starter. The only reason I replaced it was because it was cranking slow, especially in cold weather.

- So anything I should purchase ahead of time for the rebuild? My plan is to get a new solenoid and a set of brushes, anything else that is a must have?

- Do I need to be prepared to lubricate anything inside and if so what should I use for lubricant?

- Any other tips you might want to give would be appreciated.

- I did search to see if there was a tutorial or any kind of a thread outlining rebuilding the starter but did not find one, if I missed it please link it for me if you can.

Finally for those of you that don't know me I've been a mechanic for nearly 30 years. I can't think of a time I've rebuilt a starter or an alternator, but I did rebuild a portable house hold generator. I believe, I just cleaned up the inside, lubed the bearings maybe and put new brushes in it, it was a while ago. All this to say I feel confident in being able to do the job, but would like tips from anyone that have been there before.

Thanks,
SRO

 

[Rusty Nail]

If it cranks slow in the cold - it sounds to me like you need a cable, not a starter.

 

[SirRobyn0]

If it cranks slow in the cold - it sounds to me like you need a cable, not a starter.

Right, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion and it was my first thought. I probably should have said, that it was cranking slow all the time, but worse in cold weather. And at the time I did clean up the grounds and ran voltage drop tests on the cables. Replacing the starter did fix the slow crank issue.

What I want to do at this time is rebuild the old starter myself, why basically just because I can and I'm not ecstatic with the new one, though it would probably do it's thing just fine for a long time to come. So I'd hang on to that one for a spare and use the one I'm about to rebuild.

 

[Rusty Nail]

Boy!
We sure suffer from all them "first world" problems in Oklahoma too. Don't they got it rough around here?
Y U ain't got no pix  AND wtf do you mean _ you don't want no vortex??
Make a improvements dude, come on man! Do.Your.Part. and get a way more greener starter to hep SavE ThE PlaneT.
Getcha vortex.

Gas mileage and stuff.

 

[SirRobyn0]

Ok I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last message Rusty I going to believe you are trying to be funny because if not you're being offensive. And WTF on the pic request I ain't even done any work yet!

Regardless I want to circle this back around to rebuilding the starter....

What I've ordered so I'll have the common parts on hand:
new Standard brand new solenoid so I don't have to rebuild that part of it.
Standard brand brushes (there are two sizes listed so I have both coming and will return what I don't need)
Standard brand new starter drive unit
Echlin Solenoid new comes with hardware and spring
Echlin brand bushings

About $60 in parts so far. That could have been lower if I rebuilt the solenoid myself or if I choose a remanufactured drive unit that was $9 vs $35, but I don't feel comfortable with a bargain basement reman'd drive unit.

So that's where it stands. If I can remember to bring the starter with me to work tomorrow I'll get rolling on it, and I'll take pictures, I'll bet it, will not be enough pics to satisfy some I'm sure.....

 

[RustyPile]

In 1966 when I first started out as a mechanic's helper, we rebuilt everything -- starters, alternators, generators, and yes, we even relined brake shoes.. We used a small lathe to turn down (refinish) the starter's commutator. That's the cylinder looking thing that's composed of multiple metal contact segments on the end of the armature. The brushes run on it. If you don't have access to a lathe, any machine shop should be able to do that for you.

 

[Blue Ox]

Do you have access to a lathe? The most likely issue with slow cranking is bad commutator and/or brushes. I'd definitely want to turn the commutator for the new brushes. Otherwise I think you're on the right track. New solenoid and contact plate, bendix etc. Follow the manual and you should do okay.

 

[Turbo4whl]

- So anything I should purchase ahead of time for the rebuild? My plan is to get a new solenoid and a set of brushes, anything else that is a must have?

- Do I need to be prepared to lubricate anything inside and if so what should I use for lubricant?

- Any other tips you might want to give would be appreciated.

Thanks,
SRO

Besides the brushes, you should buy new brush springs and it's a good idea to get the two insulated brush holders. Two brushes are grounded, the other two are mounted in plastic/bakelite holders.

The armature should be serviced. We used a small table top lathe, but you could use a drill press to spin the armature and sand the commutator. Make sure you clean out any sanding dust that may collect on the contact insulators.

Then check for continuity between all the contacts, and no continuity to the shaft or steel segments.

Last, armature check for internal shorts. We use a grower. You'll just have to chance internal wiring shorts without the grower tool.

The bushing in the brush end cover gets worn. Hard to replace, just buy a new cover if it worn bad. Replace the nose end bushing if it is worn. The long cover bolts have insulating sleeves, also replaceable if needed.

 

[Snoots]

Have you considered the coating on the windings? Age, vibration and temperature changes can seriously affect the ability to turn that electrical energy into mechanical.

 

[SquareRoot]

I don't know how you do it. I've reached the point where time is more valuable than money. Maybe I'm just burnt out after spending the past few years building my truck. I'm just tired of troubleshooting and repairing 40 year old junk technology. I could have fixed my starter with a new solenoid but it was more work than replacing the starter. 5 minutes and $100 at Rock Auto and I had a permanent magnet, high torque starter that is half the weight and size of the original behemoth. My liver thanked me too. Reduced the job from a 6 pack job to a one beer job

 

[Turbo4whl]

Have you considered the coating on the windings? Age, vibration and temperature changes can seriously affect the ability to turn that electrical energy into mechanical.

That is what the grower tool is used to check. Anyone proficiently servicing/rebuilding starters would use a grower to check the armature. Probably the least expensive tool:

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Also @SirRobyn0 the field coils should be checked for shorts to ground.

 

[SirRobyn0]

WOW thanks everyone for your responses, ideas, and support. I'll start responding at the top.

@RustyPile I missed those days. I didn't get going until the mid-90's, but I do remember shops dedicated to rebuilding starters and alternators, frankly if the guy I use to use was still around I'd ask him to go though it, but he's out of the biz, completely. & @Blue Ox The only lathe I have access to is a brake lathe, and I don't think that'll do it. However next to the shop is an instrument shop / frankly I don't know exactly what they do there but it isn't anything automotive. They have a small lathe and he said he could check the communicator for me. They have done various other small things for us so I trust their abilities.

@Turbo4whl Thanks I'm sure I will reference your advise as I go. I cannot remember if my brushes and coming with springs. I think so, I know they had both available and I remember thinking getting springs made sense but I will check to be sure in the morning.

@Snoots no I had not. Guess we'll see when I crack it open. The good thing in all this is that I have a working starter so if I get it apart and I either don't want to tackle what's needed to bring it up to snuff, or I just don't want to I can return the parts.

@SquareRoot I get what you are saying, in general I've gone from being in the position where if I needed it, I bought it, and if it saved me time I'd buy it. I'm to the point now where it's the other way around. If I needed it I have to do it myself or go without it because I cannot afford chit right now and that's not a temporary situation. It'll be like that until I retire and we move. In the case of the starter I intend to crack it on the table next to my desk in the shop. There is no timeline on getting it done and I can fool with it in whatever spare time I do or don't have. I guess the other thing is I still have a bit interest in learning new things. Hence the reason I messed with the mechanical water injector a little bit. I wanted to see the effect. The starter is the same thing I want to see if I can do it, and have it be better than what I bought. We'll see.

@Turbo4whl I read a tutorial where the guy said how to do it with an handheld meter and I intend to try to do it that way.

Thanks ya'll for the advice and we'll just see what happens I suppose!

 

[Ricko1966]

Besides the brushes, you should buy new brush springs and it's a good idea to get the two insulated brush holders. Two brushes are grounded, the other two are mounted in plastic/bakelite holders.

The armature should be serviced. We used a small table top lathe, but you could use a drill press to spin the armature and sand the commutator. Make sure you clean out any sanding dust that may collect on the contact insulators.

Then check for continuity between all the contacts, and no continuity to the shaft or steel segments.

Last, armature check for internal shorts. We use a grower. You'll just have to chance internal wiring shorts without the grower tool.

The bushing in the brush end cover gets worn. Hard to replace, just buy a new cover if it worn bad. Replace the nose end bushing if it is worn. The long cover bolts have insulating sleeves, also replaceable if needed.

Growler, typo.

 

[mtbadbob]

My '87 was cranking really slow when I first got it, thought it had a weak battery, but did it after a full charge. I pulled the starter apart & one of the brushes was completely wore away. I've always had good luck with just a good cleaning of the armature, replace the brushes & just taking emery cloth to the "commutator", new end bushings, new solenoid, Bendix if only you're having an engagement issue.

 

[Donald]

I have been using a starter that the 1997 Tahoe 350 uses on all my Chevy engines with the large flywheel 168 tooth , that most use . They have a reduction gear and are very reasonably on line . Just put one on my GMC works great .