Runs better with vac advance unhooked (Help)

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
Oh yea the circuit could possibly be clogged screw could of been "seated/ tightened way to much". That will need it up quick. And these would need to be addressed asap.

Sent from the dust in front of you!
 

73 C10

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Posts
156
Reaction score
1
Location
California
First Name
Scott
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
350
Seated too hard is a good way to say it. I'll check them, but it was just a thought, stretch of my imagination maybe.
 

73 C10

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Posts
156
Reaction score
1
Location
California
First Name
Scott
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
350
I'll check this to see if it's still true, but just a reminder, the best it ever ran was with the vac advance off and the port plugged. I don't know what that means.
 

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
Lean... and too much advance

Sent from the dust in front of you!
 

73 C10

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Posts
156
Reaction score
1
Location
California
First Name
Scott
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
350
Ok. We're taking care off those with the needles and va kit I should be getting tomorrow if I'm following along right. And the needles are in.

The a/f links a good read so far.
 

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
Way to go :)

Sent from the dust in front of you!
 

73 C10

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Posts
156
Reaction score
1
Location
California
First Name
Scott
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
350
All right, I got the Crane kit installed. The limiter is at the first position to touch as per the instructions with the kit. I pulled the weights and cleaned with steel wool. Look'n good now. Although one of the bushings was warn through. I'll get more. I have the silver and blue spring combo as per the instructions. Took for a power spin as per the instructions to check for spark knock. None. Ran good. Barely a putt at all. I put the vac line on and it ran like a pile. After observing the old vac can, I see I need to pull about 8-9" vac to achieve about 10*, so I'll do that on the new one and set the limiter. Right now may base is ~15*. That pencils out to ~15*+10*+20*=45*. Hows that?

By the way, is there supposed to be a slight detent, or, I don't no, bump, in the rotation movement of the timing rotor, about a third of the way through the range? I didn't take a picture but if you have seen one of these like mine, there is an outer ring with points, and a inner hub with point , and when the points align, I feel a detent then the rotation continues. With the springs and weights off, I was turning the rotor arm by hand and could feel this.

Oh yeah, I got some 275/60-15 Cooper Cobras in the back this morning on some black steel D cutouts and boys, when I get a locker in the back this, thing is going to be fun!
 
Last edited:

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
I'll let rich speak on your timing. The rotor should rotate freely without any issue.

Sent from the dust in front of you!
 

73 C10

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Posts
156
Reaction score
1
Location
California
First Name
Scott
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
350
So maybe the detent is what's throwing the timing off and causing the sputters with the va?
 

73 C10

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Posts
156
Reaction score
1
Location
California
First Name
Scott
Truck Year
1973
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
350
Perfect example. You need to limit the amount of vac advance via http://m.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99619-1 or something like.... while you're at it I'd get one of these. http://m.summitracing.com/parts/acc-31035
This will allow vac advance down to 5 inches. And will be even better than your current can. Limit the vac advance to 8 or 10 degrees and take it back out for a spin :)

Sent from the dust in front of you!

I was going to try this set up, so does this mean to dial the diagram to 5", to get a max 10* (limited)? I noticed that my old one started moving at 5" and was at full stroke (15*) at 15". How did you get 22 centrifugal? Do you shave the weights?

I got the kit so I can try both avenues.
 
Last edited:

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
The if you vac advance can is adjustable your dialing in the about of vacuum it starts pulling at. I like mine to start pulling down to 5 inches/ hg. I got 22 degrees from my center plates and weights. All of them are different. Notice the numbers on mine in the pic I posted? That made it easy for me with out fubaring a good set. I'd set it to pull at 5 inches and limit the pull to 4- 10 degrees if your going with his setup. You'll have to find the amount of vac advance your engine likes no matter who's setup you try :). Test n tune night :)

Sent from the dust in front of you!
 

rich weyand

Full Access Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Posts
967
Reaction score
177
Location
Bloomington Indiana
First Name
Rich
Truck Year
1978
Truck Model
K10
Engine Size
350
OK, let's talk timing.

You want to be at or near 36* BTDC with the mechanical advance all in and the vacuum disconnected, which is anywhere above 2500 rpm. You also want the most base timing you can get without knocking. That's the sweet spot for low end power. 16*BTDC is usually safe on a stock 350 with the 76cc heads. It ought to start knocking under lugged conditions (low rpm, foot in it, up a steep hill) between 18 and 22 BTDC, so that's why I say 16* BTDC is usually OK.

If you can get 16* base timing, then 20* mechanical advance is perfect to get to 36* all in. If you can only get 14* base timing, because it starts knocking under load at 16* and you want a couple degrees safety margin, then you would want 22* mechanical. Try to get 16* base timing first. That's your ignition timing at launch, 1500 rpm and full throttle. If you get knocking, back off 2 degrees and try again.

This is why being able to dial in more mechanical advance on performance kits is important. With high-compression pistons and heads, you may only be able to run 12* BTDC base timing, so you need 24* mechanical advance to get to 36* all in. But 24* mechanical advance by itself is not a performance setting. You are better off with the highest base timing you can run and as much mechanical as it takes to get to 36* all in.

Base + mechanical of 36* BTDC is your best timing on all GM V8s in the upper half of the rpm range, 2500 rpm to redline, and full throttle.

Vacuum advance is to compensate for low cylinder pressures at closed throttle positions, such as at idle. Less intake manifold pressure (that is, more vacuum) means less mixture to compress in the cylinder, lower cylinder pressure at ignition, and a slower burn rate of the mixture, so you need to light it sooner. Vacuum advance also adjusts your timing at cruise, when you are above 2500 rpm and at constant speed, like interstate cruising at 70 mph. 44-52* BTDC is a good range. More than 52 is probably too much. Some people like to run low in the range. So lots of variation here. Adjusting vacuum advance for smoothest idle (on manifold vacuum!) is probably your best setting, wherever it is in that range.

If you have 36* BTDC base + mechanical, another 8 to 15 degrees of vacuum advance puts you in the range of 44-52* BTDC at cruise. Note that all of these are in CRANKSHAFT degrees. Vacuum advance for historical reasons is usually specified in CAMSHAFT degrees, where mechanical advance is not. Don't ask me, I didn't make the rules. So 4 to 7.5 camshaft degrees of vacuum advance is in the range. The stock HEI that came on our trucks had the vacuum can set for 7.5 degrees. Adjustable vacuum cans allow you to adjust down from that value, to achieve smoothest idle.

As an example, I am running 16* BTDC with the stock HEI, which gives me 16* BTDC on launch, 36* BTDC above 2500 rpm at full throttle, and 51* BTDC at cruise. The stock HEI works for me with a mostly stock engine, because I get the right numbers per the above discussion. An adjustable vacuum can would probably allow me to smooth out my idle a bit. If I could not get 16* BTDC, I would have to adjust the mechanical advance to get 36* BTDC all in.

Hope that helps.

BTW, there's major wear issues in your distributor if you have bushings worn through and the rotor does not rotate smoothly. Replace all the bearings on the distributor shaft, or replace the distributor.
 

rich weyand

Full Access Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Posts
967
Reaction score
177
Location
Bloomington Indiana
First Name
Rich
Truck Year
1978
Truck Model
K10
Engine Size
350
Oh, one more thing. Our stock truck engines pull a lot of vacuum. Having the vacuum advance come in very early (at low vacuum, like 5") means you have to have the pedal completely planted to get the advance out. Not so good. The stock advance comes in at about 11". The 1970s low-compression 350s pull 15+ inches of vacuum, so when you open the throttle plates, the vacuum advance drops out earlier. This is a better match for the internal cylinder pressures at ignition with partially open throttles than a vacuum advance set at 5".

When people build high-performance engines, optimized for high-end horsepower, they may only pull 10-12 inches of vacuum at idle, or even less. A vacuum advance set to come in at 11" of vacuum may not come in at all on such an engine, or the vacuum advance may "hunt", kicking in and out of advance as the manifold vacuum hovers around the 11" mark. Setting vacuum advance to come in at 5" is necessary on these engines to get them to settle down at idle. Not a biggy, because if you are racing, you only run the engine wide open (0" of vaccum) or at idle waiting for the Christmas tree to light up.

So setting the vacuum advance to come in at 5" is also considered a performance setting, but it is not a performance setting per se, it is a setting made necessary by other issues with a high-performance engine. Half-throttle performance in a street engine pulling 15+" of vacuum will be better if the vacuum advance comes off earlier, at a higher vacuum, like the stock 10" to 11" value common to GM vehicles of the 1970s.

The vacuum advance should always be set at least 2" lower than the vacuum at idle, to prevent hunting. So measure idle vacuum. If it's 10", your vacuum advance should be set to come off no sooner than 8"; 7" would be even better. But if you idle at 15" of vacuum, an 11" drop off will give better part-throttle performance than a setting of 5".

The thing is, as the throttle plate opens and cylinder pressures come up, you want to get out of the vacuum advance so you don't get knocking in transition. Bigger numbers -- 11" as opposed to 5" -- get the advance out SOONER as the pressure comes up, and get you to your launch mode base timing sooner.
 

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
Rich you should try hooking up a vac gauge bud.... You'll see you don't have put the pedal to the floor. It's more like when your accelerating that it kicks out as that when your at or below 5 hg bud. Thing is you don't want to have vac advance when you floor it that's the worse thing you could do.

Sent from the dust in front of you!
 

rich weyand

Full Access Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Posts
967
Reaction score
177
Location
Bloomington Indiana
First Name
Rich
Truck Year
1978
Truck Model
K10
Engine Size
350
I'm running too high a base timing to have the vacuum advance stay in that long. More base timing is good. That's your launch control. But base + vacuum advance is way too much timing for part throttle conditions under load. I want that advance out well before getting down to 5" of vacuum.

Remember, vacuum is inverse to throttle position. So lower number means you are still in advance farther down the pedal.

I also am running stock 15 crankshaft degrees of vacuum advance. Together with 16* base timing, that's 31* of timing with the advance in, which is way too much for part throttle. If you run 12* of base timing and 8* of advance, that's only 20* of timing. Big difference.

Vacuum advance is basically to smooth out your idle and save gas. When I put throttle to it, I want the vacuum advance to go away. Right now.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
44,057
Posts
948,512
Members
36,124
Latest member
dabsRus420
Top