mods for LONG LIFE (ie a rustfree chassis for decades??)

[columnshift]

I posted my introductory post if you want to read it http://www.gmsquarebody.com/forum/showthread.php?p=236154#post236154 but the super-brief version is that I hope to rebuild a truck or/and Suburban to literally last for decades/the rest of my natural life. Maybe I just don't like change, or maybe it's because I really miss the vehicles I grew up with, or maybe I just feel no need to change something that ain't broke... and if i'm able to be driving the same vehicle in 2060 which I custom designed for my needs now I won't be complainin'.


I'm aware people have made classic vehicles last that long with extremely careful maintenance and being gentle on it, but i'm looking at a vehicle that needs to do good hard work and i'm hoping to design something to minimize future maintenance both in lifetime cost and work.


Even if I had a car accident i'd just rebuild what I already designed swapping over all the parts. Might even be crazy to the point of salting away a primered second frame and bodypanels before theyre collector items and much more expensive to get in case of accident... i'm pretty serious about not wanting to change platforms because I don't see my life changing course that much anymore.



So i'd like to ask for a little brainstorming on the topic on the best way to achieve that while sharing what I already know.


The obvious stuff:
- Yes it would usually be garaged, i'm amazed at how long my otherwise totally neglected 1987 dodge caravan has lasted just by being garaged since new when they were rustbuckets that tended to rot out really bad...
- Yes it would be regularily washed especially here in minnesota to get off salt grime and stuff, hopefully even after every drive if I can install a heated pressure washer in the garage and have grates to drive on that drain, but still trying to see how feasible that is and figure out where to drain it in that winter so it's not guaranteed. Ideal is a design where I don't have to.
- Not abusing it as a given too, but it still has to do work.

Also to clarify the vehicle will not be babied. I need it to do legit hard work though more weekend work than daily stuff, and yearly travel (if the suburban) with some longer range towing thrown in to boot. Budget isn't unlimited and i'm not made of money - I just think i'll spend less in the long run making one truck do 20 years of work instead of upgrading every few years. Especially with a new SUV costing up to $70k by itself.


I'm also hoping to minimize future maintenance - i'm aware I can just plan maintenance items of replacing X every 10 years or something, but although I turn my own wrenches (too expensive to pay someone) I actually hate it due to physical injuries that make it painful to do (it took me a month once to put in a clutch while in a back brace), so i'd like to do as many things "just once" that I can leaving only routine easier maintenance left. Actually that's part of why I don't just want a beater I replace periodically, I don't have the time to fight with it constantly and need to run longer trips, I want to build it right once and forget about it.


Biggest concern of course is rust - i'd rather not have to restore the vehicle again if I can help it, I may not be up to the work at 65 nor able to pay for someone else to do it then. But maybe modern primer or some kind of treatment is alot more rust resistant? Do these trucks have weak points that rust real bad? (I had one but everything we had always had rust so I didn't notice patterns)


Do you think changing to fiberglass body parts would be a must? Everywhere or just weak points known for rusting? Are there any downsides? I assume it was cheaper for the factory to make steel bodies but maybe also truck abuse issues are a problem...


Any suggestions to really rustproof the frame very well? Maybe even chroming the whole thing or some kind of powder coating, something that wont rub off and then rust in place... no idea on cost/i'm not looking to spend thousands but if spending hundreds meant I don't have to fight a rusting frame in 2055 that's totally worth it.


Stainless bolts and screws everywhere is an upgrade probably worth it - having struggled to work on vehicles with 30 years of rust on them i'm willing to pay more now to not have that hassle in the future. Unless there's an equally good alternative that's cheaper but I doubt it - seen too much rusted solid zinc coated stuff.



Cryogenic treatment is something i've read about usually in performance circles - used on wear and strain parts (like brakes and clutch discs making them last 2x longer, but also on engine parts and transmission gears to take more load) and doesn't sound all that expensive. I'm hoping to try it on my existing car for a few key parts and if it works i'm probably going to throw it at everything that can benefit from it for this build. Even if each part costs more, if they last twice as long it costs less in the long run.

Barrier coatings of all kinds - again yay for modern technology. Willing to spend money for things that don't improve power or MPG directly but instead improve reliability, durability, lifespan, and reduce risk of problems to just plain haev a better made engine, transmission, or whatever.


Superior lubrication is something i'm still researching and i'm open to suggestions. Elsewhere everyone says I should go to 'bobistheoilguy' where people talk about 25,000 miles between oil changes, or no oil changes using additives and special bypass filtration and other things. I'm all for that - but haven't learned about what the options all are. One thing i'd love to see is some kind of prelubrication pump that before I even start the engine forces pressurized oil through... since most wear happens then by what i've heard.

Lubrication upgrades of anything similar for transmission, transfer case, axles i'm all game for also. Any suggestions/ever hear of anything?



That's basically the best of what i've learned from reading so far. Maybe you learned something new for your own projects too, but i'm hoping you know something I don't even if it's just rumors or leads that I need to research into because it's not yet known for sure.

Any suggestions for longer life or rustfree suspension and brake stuff for instance? Composite springs/or do they break? Any kind of long life shock absorber? Do urethane bushings outlast rubber? Stainless lines for the brakes I assume? I don't mind changing oil and brake pads but things beyond that can be really difficult for me/minimizing any work in the future is a plus.

 

[89Suburban]

I am not as gung ho as you ambition seems to be here, but we have the same wish. I'm just doing it on a lower level as it is my daily driver. It goes thru the car wash every Saturday year round. Every spring I go underneath it and touch up anything I think needs POR15 on it. I got real lucky finding this '90 in such good shape so I was way ahead of the game than I was with my '89. Stripping the hell out of the '89 and having those parts and wiring packed away in the garage as backup parts and for study and exploring modifications is a great feeling. And it is my hobby on a weekly basis to chip away replacing worn things with new parts and making upgrades. Also simplying certain aspects of he truck here in there to create less wear and tear on the motor and less maintenance and making here easier to work on. Painting everything under the hood and undercarriage a brighter color to make it easier to see and create a more positive environment for making repairs or doing regular maintenance or just inspecting. Suburban a are notorious for rear rust. It looks tacky but I keep mud flaps on all four corners to keep **** from getting slung up into the undercarriage. The rear body crossmember is especially vulnerable to that. And the rear wheel wells are 2 Hal Ed welded together and the seam is right over the center of the tire. It gets hammered by road spray and debris. It rusts and starts to open up, then that is when the real damage begins, mud, water, road salt, all getting slung through those holes into the interior shell of the rear body panels. Clogging drain holes and slowly starting to corrode the metal from the inside out.

 

[89Suburban]

Oh one more thing, out of all the tools I have acquired over the years, the flux core wire feed welder I just got my hands on over the winter is absoloutly the best rust fighting and part repairing or modding tool I have ever gotten my hands on.

 

[GreaseDog]

So you want a vehicle that is cheap, and will last forever, while doing heavy work?

 

[cbrodine]

 

[da_raabi]

Well, here are a couple of suggestions that come to mind:

1) Use a diesel engine. They still make brand-new engine blocks and parts for old 6.2 and 6.5 diesel engines. Build yourself a brand new diesel and run it in an all stock configuration. This should net you many many years of reliable (although maybe not powerful) service.

2) Powdercoat EVERYTHING. Frame, suspension and steering components, body parts where possible, axle housings, brake backing plates, essentially anything metal that you can get into a powder oven.

3) Rhinoline or Line-X the underbody, or even the whole body (looks awesome IMO). With a lifetime guarantee and a fantastic durable finish, these coatings will last longer than you! (personally I prefer Line-X but it doesn't really matter)

4) If you can get it in stainless, do so. Think: Bolts, screws, exhaust parts, anything.

Some other notes: some parts wear, they just do. Be ready to replace wear items on a set time-frame. Plan ahead. Think: steering components, batteries, light bulbs, tires and all rubber components like door seals and steering/suspension bushings, ball joints and other greaseable joints. Keep those parts that you can lube well-lubed with a quality (probably not off-the shelf) lubricant and perform regular maintenance (fluid changes, lubes etc) RELIGIOUSLY.

I think with all of this in mind, along with regular cleaning and overall care you should see a vehicle that last a long, long time. Nothing is perfect, and this stuff aint cheap but it should do what you want it to!

 

[skysurfer]

I agree with everything da_raabi said except...

4) If you can get it in stainless, do so. Think: Bolts, screws, exhaust parts, anything.

Using stainless bolts can be done, but it can do more harm than good if you haven't done your homework. Stainless has less carbon content than regular steel and as a result is more brittle. It doesn't have the tiny bit of stretch to it that you get with a regular bolt so even though it's torqued properly it will quickly work itself loose without a thread compound added. Stainless threads also tend to gall with each other unless an anti-seize is used. Usually once a stainless bolt is galled, the only way to remove it is by cutting.

The common 18-8 stainless hardware you get at the store only has a tensile strength of 70,000psi, about the same as a grade 2 bolt. (By comparison, a grade 5 bolt is rated at 120,000 psi.) It can't be used in any high stress applications, it's only safe to use for low-load decorative work. ARP makes some 140,000 psi stainless hardware with a special process they developed but you'll pay accordingly.

You also run the risk of actually increasing corrosion with stainless. It and carbon steel are dissimilar metals and galvanic corrosion will occur if there is a medium for current to flow. Just toss in a little moisture and salt from the road and you have the perfect recipe for accelerated corrosion.

 

[columnshift]

So you want a vehicle that is cheap, and will last forever, while doing heavy work?

Imprecise language makes things sound too wishful. Let's try again.

1) Spend the least I have to to get the job done. The same as any class 8 trucker is trying to do, who routinely drive vehicles designed to last a million miles but are often forced to upgrade to gain 1/2 an MPG or to fulfill some stupid contractural requirement like dispatchers that demand recent year trucks for whatever reason.

2) Willing to do extra work to give it a long lifespan. "They" dont design vehicles to last for decades because most people want to upgrade in 10 years - I don't. To me saving money is spending 50-75% more now for a truck that lasts 3 times as long instead of buying 3 trucks. HOWEVER i'm trying to do work on the first frame off rebuild, because due to disabilities (likely to be worse in two decades) it will get harder and harder to do the work later yet I still can only do the work myself on a fixed income/wont be hiring someone then either. So like a house you build and make disabled-friendly now because you wont be able to do that conversion when you retire, i'm trying to plan ahead as much as possible.

3) Heavy work doesn't mean hotshotting and going beyond design specs. What I mean is that it's going to get muddy if I haul something out of a field, and it's going to get salty just driving in the winter, and although i'd like to wash it every day I don't think that's feasible so doing things to seriously rustproof it is more my style. It's going to be a farm/ranch truck doing regular tow duty most commonly moving 2-3 tons when it does.


For instance I already looked into cathodic protection the way that they have an electrical circuit and zinc anodes on ships, bridges, and underground oil pipelines. The problem is it sounds like that won't work on a car because you can't make a complete circuit - the saltwater or wet ground or even freshwater with impurities conducts enough but in the open air it doesn't. I wish I were wrong because that by itself could have done the job, but it sounds like i'm stuck with paintings, coatings, chromings and similar instead.

They can make stuff with NO anodes that withstands being submerged 24/7/365 in the north atlantic with no cleaning for oil platforms rated for 20 years which is a sprayed aluminum coating over the steel, covered with a (powder coating like) polymer on top of it. But I suspect the cost of that would be prohibitive.

So i'm taking this pretty seriously and i'm willing to spend money up front - but it has to be money that pays for itself in that long run (a $40k truck that lasts 40 years is cheaper than a $20k truck that lasts 10 years you replace 4 times) by letting me not have to replace the truck later, maybe even preventing major work having to be done. Mostly i'm hoping to not have to frame-off overhaul it again in the future.

--

Well, here are a couple of suggestions that come to mind:

1) Use a diesel engine.

2) Powdercoat EVERYTHING.

3) Rhinoline or Line-X the underbody, or even the whole body (looks awesome IMO).

4) If you can get it in stainless, do so. Think: Bolts, screws, exhaust parts, anything.

See that's why I posted, to learn something new... can you educate me more about rhinoline/line-x?

Powdercoating is sort of the plan - it's paint, coat, or chrome. (or leave an endless oily coating which... actually works somewhat but makes working on it a pain) Maybe even zinc dip the whole frame and then powder coat it - i've heard some newer chassis are fully zinc dipped at the factory but not sure which. Whatever the best value is. Especially if that's something I can touch up chips or deep scratches with. (i've no clue/never had anything coated before either zinc or powder) The truck I have now is 23 years old but spent most of it's life garaged - a doubling of life from a restoration is not unreasonable at all - there's no real rust of note on the body or outside surface rust on frame but I haven't done much work with it. What i'm hoping is something more resilent when worked harder/getting out more.

Using a diesel is a given - i'd like to go with a cummins swap, possibly even an IH DT360, simply because theyre medium duty gear that is made to go 300k working extremely hard. In my light application combined with some longevity mods i'm hoping I might actually manage a million miles without a rebuild. (plus if I ever have to the DT360 for instance has replaceable liners like a semi potentially giving savings if I ever have to fix a scored cylinder or drive it ridiculously long) The only reason I don't like the 6.2/6.5 is it's history of randomly grenading and leaving people stranded due to apparently thermal failure. (even low mileage models of several decades age randomly sending cranks through the main web cracks...) Even if a 6.2 can be made to work i'd think the same effort spent on a 6bt or DT would bear more fruit.

Other closer-to-medium duty gear is being eyed for the powertrain. NV4500 minimum trans, possibly even a spicer or eaton-fuller. Dana 70 rear axle i'm thinking...

Some other notes: some parts wear, they just do. Be ready to replace wear items on a set time-frame. Plan ahead. Think: steering components, batteries, light bulbs, tires and all rubber components like door seals and steering/suspension bushings, ball joints and other greaseable joints. Keep those parts that you can lube well-lubed with a quality lubricant and perform regular maintenance

Everything I hear about cryo-treatment giving a 3-5x longer lifespan (which sounds possible from what I understand of metal fatigue, crystal structure, and just how tempering works) and i'm willing to try it on everything under load with gears or pressure surfaces - steering box, springs, clutch... possibly even on housings/undecided if that's needed. Maybe even the chassis - I know older chassis used to be designed to twist to act like a part of the suspension though modern design seems to be stiff chassis and let the suspension do the job - but might reduce crack risk in future if worked hard. Just a question of whether it's common for chassis to crack in the first place like that/shows up under what conditions/is it worth the money. I've read claims of people saying brakes lasting twice as long elsewhere. But reading about others claims doesn't mean i've done it or know anything for sure - i'd love to know where to talk to those who have tested and verified how well it works for different parts cuz it's kind of cutting edge and not well known it seems and not usually used outside a handful of parts.

LED lights to replace anything in the interior, underhood, 'convenience' lighting should last near forever.

Rubber parts i'd love to know if there's some kind of longer life alternative... i've heard of the polyurethane suspension components but I don't know if they last longer or shorter but I thought I heard longer. I'm willing to make every hose into stainless braided unless there's a reason not to so I never have to worry about a busted radiator hose or such again. If I can turn 'maintenance' items into lifelong items, even at some cost, it's often worth it.

Any other suggestions/brainstorming/ideas/leads along that line would be welcome even if I have to research it myself and may not bear fruit.


---

I agree with everything da_raabi said except...

Using stainless bolts can be done, but it can do more harm than good if you haven't done your homework.

You also run the risk of actually increasing corrosion with stainless. It and carbon steel are dissimilar metals and galvanic corrosion will occur if there is a medium for current to flow. Just toss in a little moisture and salt from the road and you have the perfect recipe for accelerated corrosion.

Thank you for that comment... I was wondering about galvanic corrosion risk too (from reading up about boat corrosion). Maybe titanium bolts are out there and even better? Maybe some kind of polymer washer under each bolt? I'm willing to do a bit of reengineering here - i'm aware it's not exactly trivial and I hope I won't need a mechanical engineering degree. I'm just seriously annoyed when I turn a wrench on some 30 year old car and the bolt explodes in a shower of rust dust usually into my eyes as i'm under it... i'd happily spend $1000 for fasteners or something if I knew they'd never rust and in 30 years will be about the same as when I put them on.

If there was some way to make the cathodic protection work even partially in some limited fashion i'd be all ears since it sounds like a very useful prevent-all.

 

[MadOgre]

POR 15 my friend. Must be applied properly though!

And I hear Toyota has a good Electrolosis unit can be bought for $200 new

 

[columnshift]

POR 15 my friend. Must be applied properly though!

And I hear Toyota has a good Electrolosis unit can be bought for $200 new

Could you educate me about both? Especially any references for the latter (if it's something from the factory, NOT some "dealer option" thats as phony as some of the undercoatings that made things rust faster and such I used to hear about but genuine factory backed with references "yes this reduces rust like on ships" arrangement) because all scientific references I was able to find seem to indicate it's not possible in the open air. (including the Federal Trade Commission that stopped several fraudulent sellers in the past)

 

[da_raabi]

On the poly suspension - don't do it. If you read up on poly suspension parts - mainly rotating parts - they don't work well. You NEED to read this: http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70313

What you want is Delrin. It lasts forever and actually works the way it is supposed to. I have it in a bunch of spots on my Camaro - and its the bee's knees!

Por-15 and its competitor KBS Coatings is a very hard paintable coating that is supposed to work like a paintable powdercoat. They also make rust-conversion acids etc that are great for quick non-welded cleanup. If you can afford it just go straight to a quality powder coat. Por-15 and the like are difficult to apply as the require a VERY clean surface and just the right amount of "tooth" to hold. Ask me how I know... (I peeled whole SHEETS of this stuff off of a floor pan I apparently did not prep correctly). A quality bead/soda blast and heavy powder coat will last much,much longer and probably work better for you.

 

[da_raabi]

Also make sure you get stainless brake lines (the flexible ones) that have a plastic covering on them. I believe most Russel brand lines have it. The plastic will help keep crap out of the stainless weaving and prevent premature wear.

 

[columnshift]

On the poly suspension - don't do it.

What you want is Delrin. It lasts forever

Por-15 and its competitor KBS Coatings is a very hard paintable coating that is supposed to work like a paintable powdercoat.

Huh... thanks for that suggestion, I too was affected by decades of reading magazines, but i'm still confused a little... if there's binding occuring by polyurethane being stiff wouldn't it also be happening with delrin, delalum, and nyliner? It would solve the problem of not degrading if I understand correctly but if there's binding occuring or it's excessively harsh like a paint shaker transmitting every little bump that causes degradation elsewhere...

I might be stuck with factory rubber just planning to replace it in 20 years. Hell i'm driving two vehicles now over 20 years old and I can feel the slop in the steering... but if it's only a one time scheduled replacement that's not intolerable. Less servicing I definately want even if paying a bit more now unless there is some other serious compromise making it a bad idea... "upgrades" are usually "does everything better just costs more". That's what i'm seeking, with a heavy orientation on longevity and reduced future servicing.


Speaking of powdercoating, if it does chip, what is the way one treats it? If I can touch up just the area with something and have it keep it's rustproofing both in that area and elsewhere i'll be happy.

 

[Ricko1966]

Also make sure you get stainless brake lines (the flexible ones) that have a plastic covering on them. I believe most Russel brand lines have it. The plastic will help keep crap out of the stainless weaving and prevent premature wear.

Compare the failure rate,and recommended replacement intervals Stainless vs. Original. Just do your own research before you make up your mind on this one.

 

[R Carnella]

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