I might be in trouble

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Georgeb

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Seems to be an issue with your sender or guage. You really need to verify oil pressure before you can do anything else. Check the wireing to the sender to be sure it didn't contact the manifold or somehow come loose.
 

chengny

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What do you mean by spun a bearing?

A spun bearing is the kiss of death for an engine. It essentially renders the engine block useless.

The crankshaft has a series of machined sections along it's length called journals. These journals rotate in "main bearings" which are contained in pedestals (bored into the engine block casting) on the top, and caps (bolted to the pedestals) on the bottom.

The journals never actually make contact with the bearings. They ride in a thin film of oil on the bearing surface. That film of oil is supplied by the engine's lube oil pump via internal bores in the engine block.

The main bearings are formed by two, serviceable semi-circular bearing halves (called inserts). An insert is made up of a steel shell and a coating of softer metal applied to the ID (called babbit).

These two insert halves are designed to be stationary. They are held in place by a locking tabs on the OD of the shells which fit into notches in the pedestals and caps. This shows how a bearing shell is held stationary within a pedestal. Notice the locking tab in the shell and the matching cutout in the block:

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There are basically two types of engine failure related to bearing damage - but there is a big fundamental difference between the two.

One, the least harmful, is when the bearings are "wiped".

The other, which basically renders the block unusable without extensive machine work (i.e. line boring) is when the bearings are "spun".

If an engine is operated without a sufficient supply of oil to its bearings - even for more than a short time - the oil film between the rotating journals and associated bearings overheats and breaks down.

Without that film of oil to separate the rotating steel journals from the stationary surfaces of the bearings, metal-to-metal contact quickly begins to take place. Depending on how long this contact is allowed to continue, the babbited surfaces of the bearings will heat up and melt. Eventually the melted babbit will start to be wiped away by the motion of the rotating journals (hence the term "wiped bearing").

At this point the bearings are ruined but the engine can be salvaged. The bearings are designed to be replaceable without any machine work. Whether the crankshaft is reusable as is, needs to have the journals surfaced, or is just trash - is determined by the degree of damage that the journal surfaces suffered.



Now comes the worst case - spun bearings:

If the oil film is lost and metal-to-metal contact is established, damage to the bearing and journals begins immediately. If the engine is not stopped (or by some miracle, oil flow is re-established) the bearing and journal soon become so hot - due to friction - that they will actually be welded together.

When they are welded together, and if the crankshaft continues to rotate, the bearing shell breaks free from the machined grooves in the bearing cap/block and begins to rotate along with the journal. When this happens, the bearing inserts are literally spinning within the bearing caps/block bore (hence the term "spun bearing").

If the bearings inserts spin within the bearing cap/block bore for even a brief time, the back sides (of the bearing inserts) will grind against the block and alter the dimensions/seating surface of the bore.


Point of all this is that - if you haven't operated the engine without sufficient oil for too long - there is a chance that you may not have spun any bearings. If that is the case, the engine can be rebuilt without any machine work.
 

Chaz

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I spun a rod bearing on an engine once and if that happens your gonna know theres major damage,,,,big loss of power and loud rattle from the engine,,,and there were metal flakes everwhere,,,,if you pull the oil plug and drain the oil you would see metal flakes in the oil,,,,all done,,,
 

78C30

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Well I did an oil change and I had no metal shavings and the knock isn't all the time it's only at a certain rpm. So I do not believe it's a spun or worn crank bearing ( thank you very much for the explaination) any ideas of what it could be besides a crank bearing? Unless you think that's the most likely diagnosis.
 

1973c10

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Can you cut the old oil filter open you just changed
and see what you find in it ?
 

78C30

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i will check right now
 

1low4x4

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my bet is a bad sender or gauge...or some electrical interference with either. the gauge jumping around is common, especially if there is a plug wire or something shorting out on the sender or near it.

im with the others in that if you spun a bearing youd know it. the knocking you speak of at certain rpm is probably related the lifters, or piston slap or rattling between the rod and piston and is usually not an indicator of a problem
 

Georgeb

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I didnt mean to give bad advice by mentioning a spun bearing and after seeing the videos I agree that it seems to be a guage issue. Sorry if I muddied the water on this one.
 

1low4x4

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I didnt mean to give bad advice by mentioning a spun bearing and after seeing the videos I agree that it seems to be a guage issue. Sorry if I muddied the water on this one.

hey at least now he knows what a spun bearing is
 

78C30

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I didnt mean to give bad advice by mentioning a spun bearing and after seeing the videos I agree that it seems to be a guage issue. Sorry if I muddied the water on this one.

No, you are fine i like to learn new things and i appreciate the info i didnt mean to sound like an A$$ with my reply if it came across that way. it just scared me a little when you guys started to talk about main bearings and the engine block being trashed haha

i have already replaced the sender for the oil pressure twice and have gotten same readings, i am going to check with mechanical gauge tomorrow and Tuesday depending on the reading im going to drop the pan and check oil pump and pick up tube and if necessary replace them.

Thank you very much for all the advice and i am greatly thankful for the information and descriptions provided

Jamison
 

Georgeb

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No, you are fine i like to learn new things and i appreciate the info i didnt mean to sound like an A$$ with my reply if it came across that way. it just scared me a little when you guys started to talk about main bearings and the engine block being trashed haha

i have already replaced the sender for the oil pressure twice and have gotten same readings, i am going to check with mechanical gauge tomorrow and Tuesday depending on the reading im going to drop the pan and check oil pump and pick up tube and if necessary replace them.

Thank you very much for all the advice and i am greatly thankful for the information and descriptions provided

Jamison

You didn't sound like an a$$.
Can you have somone watch the guage while you wiggle the wires around? Then you would see if the guage jumps around and possibly locate the source of the fault.
 

1low4x4

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If you go thru the trouble of dropping the pan, have a new pump ready to go in regardless. Cheap ins
 

chengny

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George says:

I didnt mean to give bad advice by mentioning a spun bearing and after seeing the videos I agree that it seems to be a guage issue. Sorry if I muddied the water on this one.

I know you didn't George, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that he had spun - or even wiped - a bearing at this point. I was only trying to express the gravity of the situation (i.e operating the engine without sufficient oil flow to the bearings).

Jamison says:

i verified that the top end is getting oil and the pressure was (again guessing as gauge isnt marked well) it was holding steady on the line between the 0 and half mark until motor hit operating temp. that is when the pressure slowly went down to just above zero guessing thats around 5-10 psi.


A couple of things in the above statement should be considered:

1. You verified oil flow at the top end when the engine was cold, but it isn't really clear whether or not that flow was maintained as the oil warmed up. Was there still evidence of good oil flow at the top end - after reaching operating temperature - and the gauge indication had fallen off?

2. From your videos it appears that the oil pressure gauge consistently indicates a steady system pressure of about 15 psi when the oil is cold - and the engine is idling. But then (every time normal operating temperature is approached), indicated pressure begins to fall off and needle movement becomes erratic.

In my experience, an increase in the temperature of the media acting on the diaphragm of a pressure sender does not cause a decrease in its variable resistance – and an associated drop in indicated pressure. If anything warmer oil will act more efficiently/quickly on the diaphragm due to it’s decreased viscosity.

What I am trying to say is; If you believe that the gauge/sender couple is providing you with an accurate indication of system pressure while the engine is cold/idling, why don’t you trust that it continues to give a true reading at operating temperature?

Look at the screen caps below. They show how steady the oil pressure gauge reads (and at what many would consider normal pressure) when the oil is cool and the engine is idling:

You must be registered for see images attach



But then see what happens when - presumably nothing associated with the gauge/sender circuitry has been changed - and the only difference is in the temperature of the engine/oil:

You must be registered for see images attach



IOW - you can't have it both ways. If you believe the gauge is providing a true indication of oil pressure at cool/idle conditions, you really should trust that it continues to do so even after operating temperatures have been reached.

If I were in your place, my gut instinct would be that the gauge was trying to tell me something. You don't want to wreck a nice motor.

Get a $5 gauge and screw it in where the sender mounts and start the engine. If the mechanical gauge reads 45 psi - you can call me Dr. Gloom. But if it shows that your oil pressure is actually as low as the gauge indicates, don't even think about driving it until you find out why.


I will now step down off my soapbox.
 
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78C30

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well......................................... dropped the pan today and ....................... found aluminum shavings about 4 1/2 inches long that are curved and the only thing that is aluminum that i can think of is the pistons. what could that mean? and am i F@#$ed?
 

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