Help with 454 decision, picking up today.

[Wumbo]

So I'm looking specifically for a 4 bolt because I'm a "do it right, do it once" kinda guy. I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm new to the old school project car stuff and I'm going off what I like and what my research has led me to believe. My truck is a really long term project to be completed over 3 years. I want the truck ready for when I graduate college. I'm looking for a 4 Bolt specifically because I have a perfectly sound and running small block in my truck. So as I repair and restore the body and frame, that engine is going to stay in the truck and I'll be building the 454 on an engine stand. I'm planning on building an engine that will handle a power output of around 1000, but that I'll be running only 600-750 through it. But then again I may do that and then feel I want to add a blower or centrifugal supercharger later. So since I don't know where the power road will take me, I'd rather get the right block and build it right the first time even if it's more expensive and takes me longer to finish.

The only reason I'm skeptical to pay $1000+ for a block is because of all the stories I read on forums of people getting 4 bolt bbc for around $500-$600.

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Then get yourself a gen 5 or gen 6 block. They didn't make them in 2 bolt mains.

Heads from older Mark IV big blocks can have sealing issues with them, but if your planning 600-750 hp as a starting point, your going to be running aftermarket aluminum heads anyways. Keep in mind, gen 5 had no provision for mechanical fuel pumps, but gen 6 does.


This guy has a bunch for sale:

https://swmi.craigslist.org/pts/d/cadillac-454-generation-engine-core/6822344951.html

 

[deve05]

all good points guys. I only mentioned how to visually recognize a tall deck block from std deck, as in his original post the seller had 2 "454's", one of which is clearly a sbc, look at the lifter bores on the orange block. You just don't know who has swapped what into anything, you need to know what to look for to hopefully prevent a bad buy.

And I'm trying to work on specifically that. I know I need to learn a lot more about these trucks. There's just a LOT to learn lol the modern cars I'm used to working on didn't come with so many engine choices and so many differences in between same engines. I've mostly worked/owned on lt1+ cars and those are easy to figure out compared to these.

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[deve05]

Then get yourself a gen 5 or gen 6 block. They didn't make them in 2 bolt mains.

Heads from older Mark IV big blocks can have sealing issues with them, but if your planning 600-750 hp as a starting point, your going to be running aftermarket aluminum heads anyways. Keep in mind, gen 5 had no provision for mechanical fuel pumps, but gen 6 does.


This guy has a bunch for sale:

https://swmi.craigslist.org/pts/d/cadillac-454-generation-engine-core/6822344951.html

So I was actually looking into that and I'd definitely pay extra if those are my best option, but all my research has led me to believe that Gen v and Gen vi blocks aren't as meaty or strong as the Gen iv blocks. I know the Gen vi block came with a roller cam set up which would work out great for me, but I definitely wouldn't want to trade easy for weak.

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[4WDKC]

The 88-99 trucks had TBI big blocks right? I'm wanting to stick to carbureted. Or were the blocks all the same? How do I know what MK version a block is?

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88-95 were TBI mark V
96-03 (i Think) gen 6 multiport fuel injection

deals are out there if you are patient and scour the right listings, I found a 98 454 180k miles. The guy was parting the truck, I wasnt really looking for an engine but when he responded only want $200 for the complete engine, harness and ecm, I couldnt get there fast enough, even got the 2wd 4l80e for an additional $50.

Are you sure the stock block will hold the power you want to make?

 

[deve05]

88-95 were TBI mark V
96-03 (i Think) gen 6 multiport fuel injection

deals are out there if you are patient and scour the right listings, I found a 98 454 180k miles. The guy was parting the truck, I wasnt really looking for an engine but when he responded only want $200 for the complete engine, harness and ecm, I couldnt get there fast enough, even got the 2wd 4l80e for an additional $50.

Are you sure the stock block will hold the power you want to make?

So it is my understanding that Gen iv blocks can handle 750 horses with no trouble at all, and top out at 1000-1200 hp without needing to be reinforced or filled, but splayed caps are a must. I've read that Gen v and Gen Vi blocks are thinner around the cylinders and should not be pushed to 900+ without the block being reinforced.

Also I've read that the steel cranks on some of these 454 are good for 1000 horses as well.

Now, I'm referring to the block alone, not the rotating assembly. I'm planning on going fully forged for the rotating assembly, with the exception of the crank, and aluminum heads with a valvetrain to match my end goal.

My plan is to build the block for forced induction, even if that means first running N/A with low compression and not making as much power as I could with a high compression N/A motor. Like I said, I've got time to finish this engine because it won't be going in the truck until she and the engine are completely finished. Weather she goes in as an FI built n/a block or as an FI motor depends on how long it takes me to complete the body and drive train work, which I've got plenty of too lol

All of this is just information I have read on forums and magazine articles, so please everyone feel free to correct me where I am wrong. I need the knowledge.

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[4WDKC]

So it is my understanding that Gen iv blocks can handle 750 horses with no trouble at all, and top out at 1000-1200 hp without needing to be reinforced or filled, but splayed caps are a must. I've read that Gen v and Gen Vi blocks are thinner around the cylinders and should not be pushed to 900+ without the block being reinforced.

Also I've read that the steel cranks on some of these 454 are good for 1000 horses as well.

Now, I'm referring to the block alone, not the rotating assembly. I'm planning on going fully forged for the rotating assembly, with the exception of the crank, and aluminum heads with a valvetrain to match my end goal.

My plan is to build the block for forced induction, even if that means first running N/A with low compression and not making as much power as I could with a high compression N/A motor. Like I said, I've got time to finish this engine because it won't be going in the truck until she and the engine are completely finished. Weather she goes in as an FI built n/a block or as an FI motor depends on how long it takes me to complete the body and drive train work, which I've got plenty of too lol

All of this is just information I have read on forums and magazine articles, so please everyone feel free to correct me where I am wrong. I need the knowledge.

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Why wouldnt you use the forged crank?

If you are thinking fuel injection you might want to check out the 8.1l engines, they use the same technology as the LS engines so you can use the same ECMs Holley Dominator/Terminator X and has controls and inputs needed for boost.

 

[deve05]

Why wouldnt you use the forged crank?

If you are thinking fuel injection you might want to check out the 8.1l engines, they use the same technology as the LS engines so you can use the same ECMs Holley Dominator/Terminator X and has controls and inputs needed for boost.

I meant with the exception of the crank IF I find a 454 with a steel crank. From what I've read my power goals won't make one of those sweat, if not, definitely going with a forged crank from Manley or something, unless there is a weight or other benefit to be had from an aftermarket forged crank.

I'm sorry, by FI I actually meant Forced Induction not fuel injection. I'm actually wanting to stay away from fuel injection and keep it old school with the carb. Haven't decided yet if I'm gonna go the blower route for real old school or if I'm gonna go the centrifugal supercharger route with a blow through carb.

I sometimes fantasize about a twin Turbo 454, but that's just a fantasy. I know nothing about how that would work, or if there is even a market for it. I'm not interested in making something with custom fabricated everything. The more I can stay with bolt on and off the shelf parts the happier I'll be.

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[deve05]

Why wouldnt you use the forged crank?

If you are thinking fuel injection you might want to check out the 8.1l engines, they use the same technology as the LS engines so you can use the same ECMs Holley Dominator/Terminator X and has controls and inputs needed for boost.

I have looked into the 8.1, but from what I've read the aftermarket on those is really shallow and options are very limited. I like the aftermarket support of the 454 better. Plus I like old school... Lol but that's just opinion and preference.

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[4WDKC]

I meant with the exception of the crank IF I find a 454 with a steel crank. From what I've read my power goals won't make one of those sweat, if not, definitely going with a forged crank from Manley or something, unless there is a weight or other benefit to be had from an aftermarket forged crank.

I'm sorry, by FI I actually meant Forced Induction not fuel injection. I'm actually wanting to stay away from fuel injection and keep it old school with the carb. Haven't decided yet if I'm gonna go the blower route for real old school or if I'm gonna go the centrifugal supercharger route with a blow through carb.

I sometimes fantasize about a twin Turbo 454, but that's just a fantasy. I know nothing about how that would work, or if there is even a market for it. I'm not interested in making something with custom fabricated everything. The more I can stay with bolt on and off the shelf parts the happier I'll be.

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I knew you meant forced induction the reason I asked about efi is because it has become stupid easy to boost efi engines with certain setups.

I have looked into the 8.1, but from what I've read the aftermarket on those is really shallow and options are very limited. I like the aftermarket support of the 454 better. Plus I like old school... Lol but that's just opinion and preference.

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I was only suggesting this for an EFI application as not sure how that engine would work with a carb.

 

[deve05]

I knew you meant forced induction the reason I asked about efi is because it has become stupid easy to boost efi engines with certain setups.



I was only suggesting this for an EFI application as not sure how that engine would work with a carb.

In all honesty I have not thought a whole lot about efi. I know there are some cool kits out there like the holly dominator that can be installed on 454 but I didn't know they made good forced Induction setups... I thought they couldn't supply enough fuel with only one carb, and I even looked into dual efi setups but they are pretty challenging to do. Maybe I need to learn more about that.

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[4WDKC]

In all honesty I have not thought a whole lot about efi. I know there are some cool kits out there like the holly dominator that can be installed on 454 but I didn't know they made good forced Induction setups... I thought they couldn't supply enough fuel with only one carb, and I even looked into dual efi setups but they are pretty challenging to do. Maybe I need to learn more about that.

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the dominator is one if not the best setups it controls the engine, the trans, boost controllers, etc.. has a ton of in/output options some are even using it for traction control. Using the dominator with an 8.1 would allow you to use a procharger kit for the engine or boost using much larger injectors. It is stupid how easy it is for those ls guys to make 1000 hp with stock bottom ends using the dominator.

 

[deve05]

the dominator is one if not the best setups it controls the engine, the trans, boost controllers, etc.. has a ton of in/output options some are even using it for traction control. Using the dominator with an 8.1 would allow you to use a procharger kit for the engine or boost using much larger injectors. It is stupid how easy it is for those ls guys to make 1000 hp with stock bottom ends using the dominator.

This is the article I had found back when researching the 8.1. What swayed me away from it was the limited aftermarket support and the fact that neither bbc or L's parts will fit it.

As for the LS. Yes they make a lot of power easily. But I'm honestly bored of them. I had a 99 z28 m6 and an 11 ls3 m6. One procharged and the other ecs, but I tackled this c10 project because I wanted to go away from my comfort zone and what I know and learn more about the old school way to go fast.

I would be open to an EFI setup on a 454. I've seen it done before, but first I'd have to learn more about its boost ability.

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[4WDKC]

This is the article I had found back when researching the 8.1. What swayed me away from it was the limited aftermarket support and the fact that neither bbc or L's parts will fit it.

As for the LS. Yes they make a lot of power easily. But I'm honestly bored of them. I had a 99 z28 m6 and an 11 ls3 m6. One procharged and the other ecs, but I tackled this c10 project because I wanted to go away from my comfort zone and what I know and learn more about the old school way to go fast.

I would be open to an EFI setup on a 454. I've seen it done before, but first I'd have to learn more about its boost ability.

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They do have limited support but with FI you dont need aftermarket heads, possibly intake, if Raylar can grind cams for them anyone should be able to. The use the 454 exhaust manifolds and have the same foot print.

quick google turned up this.
https://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/forced-induction-159/8-1l-high-boost-507908/

 

[Wumbo]

You can pay a machine shop to fit 4 bolt caps on a 2 bolt block, or just spend the money and buy an aftermarket block.

Personally, I wouldn't be skeered pushing a 2 bolt studded MK IV to 1k hp. Not to say there's zero risk.

 

[deve05]

They do have limited support but with FI you dont need aftermarket heads, possibly intake, if Raylar can grind cams for them anyone should be able to. The use the 454 exhaust manifolds and have the same foot print.

quick google turned up this.
https://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/forced-induction-159/8-1l-high-boost-507908/

Thanks for all the great info, but I think I would like to stick to 454. I just like it more. Power isn't my only goal here. I think dressed up big blocks look beautiful in an engine bay. But again, just opinion. I've had the L's.... And honestly they're kinda fugly to look at.

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