Anti wraps

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tiredtiretodd

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I suppose if it were me and since you have a nice lift and big tires already I'd start checking out that rear diff and see if you do have a LSD in it. If not, they do wonders. I was able to go places in 2wd that I had to use 4wd before. And for the first time my latest truck even has one in the front axle. Amazing where it can go now.

Although I saw you had talk about Rockwell axles. If you aren't going to keep what you have now for long no sense in putting money into your stock axles.

I'm still on the ropes about what I want to do, if anything. I do want my square to be reliable and able to go off road when I want. On the other hand I want to compete some day. So for now a reliable off roader will do.
 

nvrenuf

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Pinion angle adjustment is not a cure for real axle wrap, if it were there'd be a lot less race cars and big trucks without traction bars of some kind. Axle wrap comes from soft springs, big tires, power, tall lift blocks, etc or any combo of the those.
 

tiredtiretodd

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Thanks for all the info, I'll probably work on eliminating my blocks in the future and look into getting a better spring pack.
 

hirschdalechevy

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Pinion angle adjustment is not a cure for real axle wrap, if it were there'd be a lot less race cars and big trucks without traction bars of some kind. Axle wrap comes from soft springs, big tires, power, tall lift blocks, etc or any combo of the those.

Hate to break it to you but I had r.c. springs in the back of my step side , (stiff as hell) with 2" blocks and it wheel hopped like a bad dog everywhere ,(400 h.p. under the hood), rolled the pinion down 4 deg. wheel hopp gone , no traction bar's

My 69 superbee , (big block car) , soft mono leafs , had a little hopp when frying the tires. Rolled the pinion down , wheel hopp gone.

All my buddies around here have big trucks with big lift's and most with big power under the hood , not a one has traction bars because they spend the time getting the pinion angle right . Race cars and mudd drager's is a whole different subject.
 

nvrenuf

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Ok.....
 

MadOgre

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Hate to break it to you but I had r.c. springs in the back of my step side , (stiff as hell) with 2" blocks and it wheel hopped like a bad dog everywhere ,(400 h.p. under the hood), rolled the pinion down 4 deg. wheel hopp gone , no traction bar's

My 69 superbee , (big block car) , soft mono leafs , had a little hopp when frying the tires. Rolled the pinion down , wheel hopp gone.

All my buddies around here have big trucks with big lift's and most with big power under the hood , not a one has traction bars because they spend the time getting the pinion angle right . Race cars and mudd drager's is a whole different subject.

Im failing to see how purposely creating u joint binding will solve axle wrap which is created from tourqe on the passenger axle shaft.

You will still have axle wrap and be replacing u joints and possibly pinion bearings more often.

It doesn't matter what location the pinion is oriented to, it is the tire being stuck to the ground and the axle tourqe wanting to push the axle housing the other way. If you transmit power to the pinion you will always have this issue no matter where the pinion is.

Unless your trying to tell me that the driveshaft acts as a leverage bar aginst rotational tourqe of the axle housing. Although with the nature of the driveshaft having a slip yoke on one end and a fully rotational joint on the other im afraid that simply will not happen.

I had a buddy in high school with a Camaro with bad wheel hop and he did just as you suggest because that was the rumor going around and guess what happened? he broke his u joint the first time he hammered on it LOL
 

nvrenuf

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Im failing to see how purposely creating u joint binding will solve axle wrap which is created from tourqe on the passenger axle shaft.

You will still have axle wrap and be replacing u joints and possibly pinion bearings more often.

It doesn't matter what location the pinion is oriented to, it is the tire being stuck to the ground and the axle tourqe wanting to push the axle housing the other way. If you transmit power to the pinion you will always have this issue no matter where the pinion is.

Unless your trying to tell me that the driveshaft acts as a leverage bar aginst rotational tourqe of the axle housing. Although with the nature of the driveshaft having a slip yoke on one end and a fully rotational joint on the other im afraid that simply will not happen.

I had a buddy in high school with a Camaro with bad wheel hop and he did just as you suggest because that was the rumor going around and guess what happened? he broke his u joint the first time he hammered on it LOL

Thank you.
 

MadOgre

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I just reread the first page of posts and see that he was referring to having proper driveline angle. And yes proper driveshaft to pinion angle is 0 degrees or perfectly in line. However this has nothing to do with axle wrap they are 2 completely different problems
 

crazy4offroad

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Perfect pinion angle is matching whatever your driveline angle is at the t-case/trans. More than 10 degree difference can result in vibration. Zero at the pinion depending on lift could result in negative angle under acceleration and could result in pinion bearing failure due to lack of lubrication. And depending on how much power you're putting down and how soft your springs are, it could result in completely spitting out the driveshaft on launch. Unless triangulated/LCAs/UCAs or ladder bars are used there will always be some degree of wrap, and you want the axle to not roll up the pinion enough to go negative angle.
 

Greybeard

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I kinda fall into the line that say's use the bars and just put the pinion at the optimum angle for the usage the truck will see. By rotating the pinion down regardless of whether the hop happens the axle is still wrapped up, THAT is axle wrap in it's simplest form. When the tires gain and lose traction intermittently causing the wheels to bounce THAT is wheel hop. 98% of the time they happen concurrently. There are times that the wheels can bounce rapidly without wrapping the axle at the same time under power. Think of a washboard road.

The important thing to remember is that axle wrapping is also a misnomer, the axle doesn't wrap, the springs do. Everyone here knows the difference...the springs are forced into a 'S' shape. This is not a good position to be in for a flat spring. Some springs have the double (military) eye at both ends and some have a half wrap wrap and some just one leaf has is shaped into the eye. Guess which one prevents wrap the best. Cheaper lift kits will only have one leaf wrap for the eye, better ones will have the second leaf half wrap and the best will be a full or 3/4 wrap.

Spring leaf thickness also comes into play. Three really thick leaves will resist wrap much better than seven or nine thin leaves will. Why? Try and bend a 3/8" thick piece of steel now try bending sheet metal, even heavy gauge metal. Stack the thin metal up and try.....it will still be flexible as long as the ends are free to move.

So arguing about spring wrap, and wheel hop is moot.

The rock crawlers use the large and tall center mounted ladder bar to facilitate articulation, if you aren't rock crawling this isn't necessary but they work if there is room to install them. In the mud it might be better to use two spaced wide to reduce stress on the axle tubes (which should be minimal anyway) or use the older over the spring type that are actually pretty easy to build at home, no welder needed.

As for cons, all anti-wrap devices will limit movement to some degree. That is the intended function after all. The best solution to wheel hop is a great set of shocks. The best solution to spring wrap is a set of geometrically designed bars as long as possible towards the front and placed at axle centerline through the horizontal center of the front spring eye or the average between total expected spring compression and maximum droop on one side. The easiest way to get close is follow the driveshaft and use the point of contact at the T-case end as the forward mounting point so the axle moves in as small an arc as possible.

YMMV. This is the way it was back when these trucks were new. There may be better ways today that I am not familiar with.
 

MadOgre

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Your bang on Greybeard.

I think what crazy4offroad is getting at is that with the pinion at 0 degrees, unsolved axle wrap will cause issues. But that is the very nature of axle wrap and thus the need to prevent it, if it is happening.
 

Greybeard

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I remembered after I posted that I would get wheel hop in a 14cy dumptruck that was fully loaded in a thin layer of sand at the quarry site. The dump I drove had two sets of drivers with an intermediate shaft that could be locked in or left free for the road. Bouncing the duals on a truck weighing in at 50,000-60,000lbs is not a good thing either. These trucks were not airbag trucks, they had leaf springs and track bars. But there was no way for the springs to wrap. What happens is the air cushion in the tires causes the bounce as traction is gained and lost by the tire. Wheel hop might be more pronounced in a truck with tall tires that are aired down as a result. I never had and any problems that (come to mind) with 39's and 400+ horsepower with Trailmaster lift blocks and stock springs.

I have an assumption that there are some reasons why some trucks do, and some tucks don't bounce or succumb to severe spring wrap.

First, most folks severely overestimate the horsepower of their tucks. It was likely built with the goal of achieving 600hp, but more often than not in my experience the actual finished engine falls far short of that goal. Especially if it's finished up at home by the owner and by ear and timing light. Getting 600hp out of an at home build requires exquisite attention detail and more money than most shadetree mechanics have. If it's dyno's and the paper says 600, congratulations, you need to be building engines for a living at Daytona.

Second, due the underestimated horsepower there is not nearly the pressure on the contact patch as is assumed. Two things happen with the wild application of the go pedal. The tires break traction instantly and accelerate faster than the suspension can compensate therefore bypassing the bouncing stage and wrapping the springs so tight they cannot rebound. OR That amazing overestimation of horsepower shows it's fugly face as a lackadaisical acceleration of tire speed which is so slow that the suspense binds, releases, binds, releases. The engine sounds great, it feels healthy, but little is reaching the ground. This is a square of the tire height and gears also. In four low-low, tire speed is automatically slow, this is when traction aids shine.

So now we circle around to the previous discussions. On road wheel hop and spring wrap have an entirely different dynamic than off-road wheel hop although everything does the same thing for the same reasons.

One other consideration to be thought about. Jumping the truck. Most folks realize that trucks in normal form are not designed for the stresses of leaving the ground and then returning. The factory frames and suspensions just simply were not designed for that. However, **** happens and hopefully nothing bends or breaks. However, from personal experience the first thing to go will be the front u-joints (hopefully). The reason being, squares are nose heavy, so the front tires will likely be the ones to return to terra firma first. If the tire speed and the air speed are not really close the axle will wrap the springs instantly in whichever direction the tires need to be, whether it's speeding up or slowing down. This will result in instantaneous u-joint bind and then some serious disaster under the truck depending on which end broke and the springs didn't bend or break.
 
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