Toyoder CV Axle

[Doppleganger]

Very off topic here.....we have friends who are in their 70s and cant fork out the $100/hr shop rates anymore. They have an 06 Avalon that has a rhythmic knock in the left front wheel. It has zero play 9 to 3, but about 1/8"+ 12 to 6 (its defintely the source of the knock). Brake components are all newer and fine. I thought it would be a broken ball joint but the joint is solid, dry and boot is fine. My second guess was maybe a wheel bearing - still unsure.

So yesterday before carving the bird, I got a closer look at it - the entire outer CV joint where it enters the hub, moves when I flex it 12 to 6. Maybe its supposed to? The boots on the outer axle are also fine, but car has 200k so could just be shot. There was an identical situation posted like this on a Toyota board but no one answered the poster - 8 yrs ago.

Hoping one of you fellas that wrench for a living might have a BTDT idea about this. I have read that if it is an outer CV joint, its cheaper and easier to replace the entire outer axle assembly. It doesn't look difficult to fix but I just dont want to start tearing things apart and throwing parts (and money he doesn't have) at it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[RecklessWOT]

Sounds like a classic case of a bad CV axle to me. Not even judging by how much play is involved, just the clicking sound when turning you mentioned, there;s not a lot it could be besides a super wonky brake failure or wheel bearing that is toasted beyond belief, but those would be obvious even to the casual observer. Just buy the whole new shaft, should take less than an hour to change and is not hard at all, especially ones with McPherson strut suspension like your Toyota in question. Take the wheel off, brakes, axle nut, and then unbolt the two bolts that hold the bottom of the strut to the knuckle, pry the knuckle out of the strut with a large flat blade or something leaving the top attached to the strut tower, it ain't gonna go nowhere (contrary to popular belief it is not necessary to remove the tie rod or lower balljoint, you will be able to swing the knuckle out of the way enough to get the axle out even if you have to force it a bit, you won't hurt anything). You'll have to bend it at quite an angle but the axle should just slide back out of the hub at that point, and the inner side of the axle will slide right out of the transmission. Reverse the steps when sliding the new one back in, and putting everything back together. If you're only used to American cars it can all seem quite foreign (no pun intended), but working on J ap cars is about as simple as it gets TBH.

 

[shiftpro]

Sounds like a classic case of a bad CV axle to me. Not even judging by how much play is involved, just the clicking sound when turning you mentioned, there;s not a lot it could be besides a super wonky brake failure or wheel bearing that is toasted beyond belief, but those would be obvious even to the casual observer. Just buy the whole new shaft, should take less than an hour to change and is not hard at all, especially ones with McPherson strut suspension like your Toyota in question. Take the wheel off, brakes, axle nut, and then unbolt the two bolts that hold the bottom of the strut to the knuckle, pry the knuckle out of the strut with a large flat blade or something leaving the top attached to the strut tower, it ain't gonna go nowhere (contrary to popular belief it is not necessary to remove the tie rod or lower balljoint, you will be able to swing the knuckle out of the way enough to get the axle out even if you have to force it a bit, you won't hurt anything). You'll have to bend it at quite an angle but the axle should just slide back out of the hub at that point, and the inner side of the axle will slide right out of the transmission. Reverse the steps when sliding the new one back in, and putting everything back together. If you're only used to American cars it can all seem quite foreign (no pun intended), but working on J ap cars is about as simple as it gets TBH.

Good post. Thanks for helping my buddy help his elder friends.

 

[CalSgt]

My money is on the wheel bearing, bad CV won't cause movement in the wheel.

Not saying it isn't due for CV's too but I would replace wheel bearing & see if noise goes away

 

[AuroraGirl]

Sounds like a classic case of a bad CV axle to me. Not even judging by how much play is involved, just the clicking sound when turning you mentioned, there;s not a lot it could be besides a super wonky brake failure or wheel bearing that is toasted beyond belief, but those would be obvious even to the casual observer. Just buy the whole new shaft, should take less than an hour to change and is not hard at all, especially ones with McPherson strut suspension like your Toyota in question. Take the wheel off, brakes, axle nut, and then unbolt the two bolts that hold the bottom of the strut to the knuckle, pry the knuckle out of the strut with a large flat blade or something leaving the top attached to the strut tower, it ain't gonna go nowhere (contrary to popular belief it is not necessary to remove the tie rod or lower balljoint, you will be able to swing the knuckle out of the way enough to get the axle out even if you have to force it a bit, you won't hurt anything). You'll have to bend it at quite an angle but the axle should just slide back out of the hub at that point, and the inner side of the axle will slide right out of the transmission. Reverse the steps when sliding the new one back in, and putting everything back together. If you're only used to American cars it can all seem quite foreign (no pun intended), but working on J ap cars is about as simple as it gets TBH.

In my cars, You can only get the cv axle out on both sides by over extending the joints to where you can damage them if not careful to get them out without a tie rod or ball joint coming off, too. However, my car has a larger passenger side cv axle to take the extra torque and probably has less clearance. On the driver side, the transmission is splined and the axle is female, that may be able to be worked enough to get it but I found just an extra tie rod unhook or possibly even loosening the control arm bolts would allow the droop to increase to allow it to come out. In a japanese car, Im sure its not as likely a problem, but figured ot mention that even just an extra part or two that only take a few minutes could mean success vs swearing lol. But i would definitely try without removing them first, espeically if they want to spin in place when putting a ratchet on.

In my opinion unless the wheel bearing is toasted like.. toast.. we are looking at a CV Axle which has a loose axle nut and the thing isnt retained to the bearing properly which applies, often, a preload for the bearing and also keeps the splines engaged positively and from doing this:

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However, if the part that is moving is not the stub that engages the wheel bearing, but rather the bearings and joint behind that connects to the shaft:

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I created this diagram of a general CV joint to explain what Im saying. If the nut and splines and thus that housing/outer part is positively held, not at issue, then simple should need a CV axle(Dont forget a transmission axle seal!!!, careful to not rip them!)
However if it was like the pink box on the left, I say replace the wheel bearing because the splines may be worn which means the nut has to do more work holding the axle positively engaged to the bearing which means more torque and that will start to bind the wheel bearing. I also didnt mention the inner CV Joint or those parts, but theoretically they can be the issue(CV axle replace as well) but they wouldnt be sloppy at the wheel end at least if it was the only issue, both ends could have wear but the repair is unchanged from the green box in that instance.

also note any tone rings that may exist on the axle for ABS or speed sensor purposes that may or may not have to transfer axles.

 

[RecklessWOT]

My money is on the wheel bearing, bad CV won't cause movement in the wheel.

Not saying it isn't due for CV's too but I would replace wheel bearing & see if noise goes away

I misread the post, I didn't see the 9/3 vs 12/6 as in the moving, I assumed he was talking about play in the axle shaft. In light of the new info you're right I'd be looking at the wheel bearing first.

Luckily that's sold as a whole hub unit, just bolts to the knuckle with 4 bolts (and is usually kinda rust welded in place after 15 years). Take the wheel and brakes off and see if the hub itself has a lot of play in it, or if it makes a grinding sound when you try to free wheel it in neutral. There should be no in and out play, or side to side/up down either for that matter. The hub should feel pretty firm

 

[RecklessWOT]

In my cars, You can only get the cv axle out on both sides by over extending the joints to where you can damage them if not careful to get them out without a tie rod or ball joint coming off, too. However, my car has a larger passenger side cv axle to take the extra torque and probably has less clearance. On the driver side, the transmission is splined and the axle is female, that may be able to be worked enough to get it but I found just an extra tie rod unhook or possibly even loosening the control arm bolts would allow the droop to increase to allow it to come out. In a japanese car, Im sure its not as likely a problem, but figured ot mention that even just an extra part or two that only take a few minutes could mean success vs swearing lol. But i would definitely try without removing them first, espeically if they want to spin in place when putting a ratchet on.

In my opinion unless the wheel bearing is toasted like.. toast.. we are looking at a CV Axle which has a loose axle nut and the thing isnt retained to the bearing properly which applies, often, a preload for the bearing and also keeps the splines engaged positively and from doing this:

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

However, if the part that is moving is not the stub that engages the wheel bearing, but rather the bearings and joint behind that connects to the shaft:

You must be registered for see images attach

I created this diagram of a general CV joint to explain what Im saying. If the nut and splines and thus that housing/outer part is positively held, not at issue, then simple should need a CV axle(Dont forget a transmission axle seal!!!, careful to not rip them!)
However if it was like the pink box on the left, I say replace the wheel bearing because the splines may be worn which means the nut has to do more work holding the axle positively engaged to the bearing which means more torque and that will start to bind the wheel bearing. I also didnt mention the inner CV Joint or those parts, but theoretically they can be the issue(CV axle replace as well) but they wouldnt be sloppy at the wheel end at least if it was the only issue, both ends could have wear but the repair is unchanged from the green box in that instance.

also note any tone rings that may exist on the axle for ABS or speed sensor purposes that may or may not have to transfer axles.

I'm assuming that's on your buick? I've never seen a japanese car with female ends on axle shafts, they're mostly all the same animal. And yeah if you're rough with the axle you can damage it, but even overextended as long as you're careful it won't just explode on you. I've changed dozens of the things in my years of owning primarily J ap cars and have never had issue. Also never had a transaxle seal rip or fail, once again it's usually extremely straightforward on Japanese sh!t. The tone rings are built right into the axle and can't be removed or swapped, the new one will just cone with it if the vehicle is so equipped. They might be little tin cans compared to American vehicles, but are actually far better engineered IMO. Don't get me wrong, all of the trucks I've owned since I was in my early 20s have been GMs (and one Furd, never again) and I sure do love them, but as far as passenger cars go I never drive American cars they're just not built well IMO, sorry. The J aps got it figured out, they make a reliable car that is extremely easy to maintain/repair if the need does arise. There is virtually nothing that won't be a 10, 12, 14, or 17mm bolt/nut with rare exceptions like axle nuts and some tensioners.

 

[AuroraGirl]

I'm assuming that's on your buick? I've never seen a japanese car with female ends on axle shafts, they're mostly all the same animal. And yeah if you're rough with the axle you can damage it, but even overextended as long as you're careful it won't just explode on you. I've changed dozens of the things in my years of owning primarily J ap cars and have never had issue. Also never had a transaxle seal rip or fail, once again it's usually extremely straightforward on Japanese sh!t. The tone rings are built right into the axle and can't be removed or swapped, the new one will just cone with it if the vehicle is so equipped. They might be little tin cans compared to American vehicles, but are actually far better engineered IMO. Don't get me wrong, all of the trucks I've owned since I was in my early 20s have been GMs (and one Furd, never again) and I sure do love them, but as far as passenger cars go I never drive American cars they're just not built well IMO, sorry. The J aps got it figured out, they make a reliable car that is extremely easy to maintain/repair if the need does arise. There is virtually nothing that won't be a 10, 12, 14, or 17mm bolt/nut with rare exceptions like axle nuts and some tensioners.

i wasnt disagreeing LOL
Yes that was from my buick. The CV axles would be different I assumed I know some makes use flanged ends on the trans side too so its varied. Also the seal thing wasnt because they are wimpy in nature like on the buick, for example, it was because they are often ripped in install by either not supporting the shaft until its all the way in, or yanking it out with the weight yanking the seal on the bottom at the very least distorting it. THey also get old are cheap and easy to replace since in there.

Also, I agree on build quality. I love my buick and my old cars etc but the single most well built car I own is my 2006 hyundai. Its something I want to fix and put back on the road but the specific engine is unfortunately not super super reliable and I dont want to dump another one in for the cost it will take if im going to be looking at major repair down the road. So Iwant to save a little more and get one with either warranty or just much lower miles so that Its kinda at least preventable since I would do the oil changes and use the right filters(big reason for failure) .

The nice part is about the wheel bearing vs axle nut thing is that the axle nut part would both cause the wheel bearing toi be shorter life, yes, but there would be most likely a noise from the slack snapping back and forth slowly more over time while driving that would be unlike the clicking they can do if the joint is worn or the popping if the plunge joint has problems too. So I dont think its the likely thing but I never ever had any concept of that issue till my wheel bearing at 226k broke its splines off .. partially lol! Should have saw the grease on that inboard joint.. the play too. The whole axle bound up while going into boost and it was the thing that yielded. Lol. I think when it broke it jumped a few splines and probably stayed there after but was sure messed up at that point.


I worked on a 2004 nissan, so even tho I hate nissan and all that, it was an OK car and the tie rod I replaced wasnt bad at all but the cv axle had to be original by the looks of it and it was a high mileage car, it was looking pretty good to me, I wanna say the ball joint was starting to get some play but wheel bearing seemed good and the cv axle good too. I also did an oil change and despise where they put it onthat damn thing, in the passenger wheel well but covered by plastic cover that someone had fastened alternatively so I just kinda stabbed the thing with a screw driver and turned but only did it 5 times before it would yield. It was a lube shop special so that impact ran it on no doubt. The body of the filter was clearly peened around the perimeter where the threads started to yank it closer to the engine which meant that seal would have been nice and smushed too lol.

 

[Doppleganger]

the single most well built car I own is my 2006 hyundai....

....but the specific engine is unfortunately not super super reliable

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[AuroraGirl]

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Its a well built car, but the engine option is the weaker of the two. When I say not super reliable, people who arent on their oil changes ruin the bottom end on one cylinder at 200k but if you keep up with it like youre supposed to, its 200k+ easily. Im speaking relative because I drive two vehicles with bulletproof engines that take abuse and spit it at you. Im saying i cant verify the owners did their due dilligence before me on a replacement engine hence why the low mileage part.

Its a great car otherwise.

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[bucket]

Iirc, an '06 Avalon has a wheel bearing that presses into the knuckle and then onto the wheel hub. A shop press is usually needed. When there's any axle/CV problem, the entire CV shaft gets replaced. That has been common practice for decades now because they have come down so much in cost. Nobody really replaces individual CV parts anymore, even if it's just the boots.

I won't comment with certainty on the specific noise because I'm not there to see it for myself, but it does sound like there are possibly two problems. A worn CV axle and a loose wheel bearing.

 

[AuroraGirl]

Iirc, an '06 Avalon has a wheel bearing that presses into the knuckle and then onto the wheel hub. A shop press is usually needed. When there's any axle/CV problem, the entire CV shaft gets replaced. That has been common practice for decades now because they have come down so much in cost. Nobody really replaces individual CV parts anymore, even if it's just the boots.

I won't comment with certainty on the specific noise because I'm not there to see it for myself, but it does sound like there are possibly two problems. A worn CV axle and a loose wheel bearing.

oh god **** that noise
While Its doable for sure, and its possible to find the parts, sure. Its just such a time constraint and... the worst part.. that grease... I would hate myself If I spent the time to break one of those things down, got that grease everywhere since youre not gonna be able to get it cleaned out without getting it everywhere thats like rule one of antiseize and cv grease lol, and then you need to get new CV grease and a boot and its all just so much labor when the whole thing realistically has wear on the various parts, replacing only part is a pissing in the wind kind of thing. But if you do both ends... you just get another lol! same work but way more efficient and headache saving

 

[Grit dog]

Its a well built car, but the engine option is the weaker of the two. When I say not super reliable, people who arent on their oil changes ruin the bottom end on one cylinder at 200k but if you keep up with it like youre supposed to, its 200k+ easily. Im speaking relative because I drive two vehicles with bulletproof engines that take abuse and spit it at you. Im saying i cant verify the owners did their due dilligence before me on a replacement engine hence why the low mileage part.

Its a great car otherwise.

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No, that 3rd Gen Dodge in the background is a great car!
‘Bout how many miles a year do you drive?

 

[AuroraGirl]

No, that 3rd Gen Dodge in the background is a great car!
‘Bout how many miles a year do you drive?

Miles a year? about 15-20k combined between vehicles. This year less, 2019 quite a bit but balanced with less last year. 2018 would fall into that nicely. next year will probably fall into that too. I think so far Im about 10k if I round it all to now from january.

 

[Rusty Nail]

Uhhh...

I know you might think me funny - BUT!

I'll share a story.

A long time ago I had an auto mechanic mentor named "Purple". One of two, he was the last.
Purple effing blew.my.mind. I was FRESH out of Vo-Tech one day, looking at a similar situation of no money / need fix not my car.. There was an early 80s Honda with a clacking CV joint.
Now i'm not kidding - I couldnt hardly believe what I witnessed when he took the OE axle shaft out - with 200k+ miles on it - and - turned it around - before reinstalling it.
Problem solved.
180 that ship and put it back in, fix it for nothin with a flathead.
Let em watch .
Eat em and smile?

ProTip right there gonna get you home.

If you dont find a rubber balance on the long piece I think you'll be famous. Sometimes it is physically impossible but others it's not.
F- wow. You'll be a hero!

Fixed the clack with no money with no parts?
While I watched?
Mmm. Yes, Mentor me.
PLEASE.

I want to be a mechanic like that too! I'll learn all that stuff real good Purple!

FVCKING. MAGICK. to fix cars without parts!

Sometimes that can work dude. Fix it cuz u touched it -thats all.
Fix it with a flathead , getcha a big #1 and pop that dude out BUT! you might have to learn the little side too but wont have to take the brakes apart?

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