How does this sort of thing happen????

[YakkoWarner]

I took my 1989 2500 Suburban in to get stuff done, got it back and its been running great. Steering wheel doesn't feel like its going to come off like a Loony Toons skit anymore, no check engine light staring me in the face, no Spyhunter level smokescreen out the back at speed over 55 MPH, etc...

And then I park at work, realize I need to move over a few inches because the lines in the parking garage are too badly faded to see until you exit the vehicle. Go to start up, it grinds very slowly for a second, then I get a reverberatingly loud bang (not a backfire). I ended up losing 3 hours from the work day crawling under there - pulled the inspection cover and the starter gear is still engaged to the flex plate but just barely - the teeth look almost edge to edge instead of cleanly meshing. Jiggling it around got the starter bendix to retract. I very slowly bumped the starter to see if it would engage/disengage, it did and the engine rotated slightly - enough for me to find a series of chipped (but not completely broken off) teeth on the flex plate. I threw on the a low-cost rebuilt starter (only one in stick within walking distance of work), took out the starter shim to hopefully get a better engagement and it did start up, but very noisily. Ran it home, came back to work in my Mazda. It would not even try to engage - could hear the starter motor run but no engagement at all. So tomorrow I get to have it towed back to the shop - I'm just trying to figure out what the heck I did wrong. The shop did not touch anything on the bottom side of the engine with the work they did (other than change out the oil which got contaminated with coolant when they took the intake off) - it was all top end stuff. I'm sure I'm in it for at least a new flex plate, probably another new starter, and cables from battery to starter/starter to junction box since they looked pretty crunchy on the bottom end from being right under the exhaust manifold. My overriding question is how to I prevent a repeat....

 

[Edelbrock]

My overriding question is how to I prevent a repeat....

I would start by going to a different repair shop. You would be surprised what goes on at those places. I have worked at repair shops, and the owners / managers are replaced if they don't bring in enough profits. Employees are just as easily replaced. The number 1 priority is to make money - PERIOD.

They did a huge investigation on auto repair shops by putting hidden cameras in and under the car. It was on TV years ago.

Brake fluid flush - Turkey baster in the baster cylinder and a few drop of fluid on the bleeders (not flushing the lines at all).
Dabbing used oil around engine and transmission seals.
Installing used parts.
Damaging other parts so that they will fail sooner.
Saying a repair is needed, and then billing it without actually repairing anything.
Loosen up bolts so that noises and leaks will start.
Cutting CV boots.
Putting metal shavings in the rear axle fluid.
Putting water in the oil to simulate a bad head gasket.

And so on.

Not all shops are scams of course, but you would be amazed at how many are.

So if you go to a shop, and something odd happens afterwards - might as well try another shop.

 

[fast 99]

I would start by going to a different repair shop. You would be surprised what goes on at those places. I have worked at repair shops, and the owners / managers are replaced if they don't bring in enough profits. Employees are just as easily replaced. The number 1 priority is to make money - PERIOD.

They did a huge investigation on auto repair shops by putting hidden cameras in and under the car. It was on TV years ago.

Brake fluid flush - Turkey baster in the baster cylinder and a few drop of fluid on the bleeders (not flushing the lines at all).
Dabbing used oil around engine and transmission seals.
Installing used parts.
Damaging other parts so that they will fail sooner.
Saying a repair is needed, and then billing it without actually repairing anything.
Loosen up bolts so that noises and leaks will start.
Cutting CV boots.
Putting metal shavings in the rear axle fluid.
Putting water in the oil to simulate a bad head gasket.

And so on.

Not all shops are scams of course, but you would be amazed at how many are.

So if you go to a shop, and something odd happens afterwards - might as well try another shop.

While I agree there are shops that may do questionable work. However it is not the norm, at least here. Have been in both the towing industry and repair for 30+ years. I know almost every shop owner in this area. After folks get a vehicle repaired they pay much more attention to details than before. Most times there was an existing issue that they are now paying attention to or alternately trying to get something fixed for nothing. I have worked on cars that almost self destruct if anything is touched. Can't count the thousands of times I have heard "it never did that before" or "ever since". rant over

Back to the op.

In order to have a quiet starter both the ring gear and starter will have to be replaced at the same time.

It is rare today to need shims. I suspect there was an existing part that was failing, loose or wrong. Timing is likely just circumstantial.

 

[ASPEC]

Sounds like a failed starter or a cracked flex plate that finally let go. Crappy timing? Sure, but it is a 35 year old truck and if the starter has ever been replaced at some point it would not be the same quality level as the original.

At least it happened while you had it. Sounds like you were "2 starts" away from a failure. Imagine if it happened while still at the shop... would you have believed the tech when they told you what happened?

 

[YakkoWarner]

Sounds like a failed starter or a cracked flex plate that finally let go. Crappy timing? Sure, but it is a 35 year old truck and if the starter has ever been replaced at some point it would not be the same quality level as the original.

At least it happened while you had it. Sounds like you were "2 starts" away from a failure. Imagine if it happened while still at the shop... would you have believed the tech when they told you what happened?

Didn't see any cracks in the flex plate when I had the inspection cover off - just teeth that looked like that hadn't been to the dentist in 35 years. Damage seemed recent, the bad/chipped edges were shiny. Did discover a hand-painted date on the torque converter from 2004, so I assume that is the last time anyone had been inside the inspection cover. Starter was around 3 years old, one of the things I had to replace when I got the truck.

I try to do as much as I can myself, but right now I'm working 7 days a week (from mid january thru end of april) so I just don't have the opportune time to dig into this kind of thing. I have friends who goto and swear by the shop I use - owner rides a late 80's Blazer and we see all kinds of classics in the bays. They never dealt me wrong before and the work the did do (intake gaskets, valve covers, column repair, etc) has been excellent. I have no reason to doubt they are playing level with me.

If I can get one more out of it tomorrow (not counting on it) I can save myself a big towing bill but I certainly have my doubts.

 

[Sad Sack]

One thing to remember is GM heavy starters need that rear torque strap employed or the starter can get all wonky and tears teeth up on the flex plate.

 

[Ricko1966]

Also if the battery or cables is questionable,the starter drive can get stuck. And with your turning and not turning etc. Check your battery and cables. I have worked at several shops,mom and pop,franchises and 3 or 4 dealerships. I've never met anyone on the job that intentionally did things to create more work,or billed for services not done. Never had a service writer or shop owner do it either. They've asked me to do plenty of stuff for free to keep customers happy and that's been almost anywhere I've worked. Through being at different shops I've met lots of techs,from lots of other shops,haven't met any that I knew were dishonest. There are plenty of customers that are less than honest,don't understand we don't have crystal balls and just because we changed your intank pump yesterday we don't know and have nothing to do with your alternator,ignition switch,or crank position sensor failing next week I'm tired of everyone labeling us as crooks. We have to be educated every year,and buy new tools for new systems. 99 percent of us aren't crooks,and aren't ripping people off and getting rich doing this.

 

[fast 99]

Sounds like a failed starter or a cracked flex plate that finally let go. Crappy timing? Sure, but it is a 35 year old truck and if the starter has ever been replaced at some point it would not be the same quality level as the original.

At least it happened while you had it. Sounds like you were "2 starts" away from a failure. Imagine if it happened while still at the shop... would you have believed the tech when they told you what happened?

That's actually happened to me several times along with vehicles running out of gas either on road test or in the shop. It's very hard to deal with the public. Could never be a service writer [well actually I could] but would only last a week until I was arrested.

 

[Ricko1966]

Go to the Doctor if you aren't well in a week go back and tell him he diagnosed you wrong,you want him to see you right now,and everything from this point until your well is free. See how that goes, it happens all the time in automotive. And the shop owners don't pay us for it,we get paid off of billable hours.

 

[fast 99]

Also if the battery or cables is questionable,the starter drive can get stuck. And with your turningbsliw and not turning etc. Check your battery and cables. I havevwirjed at several shops,mom and pop,franchises and 3 or 4 dealerships. I've never met anyone on the job that intentionally did things to create more work,or billed for services not done. Never had a service writer or shop owner do it either. They've asked me to do plenty of stuff for free to keep customers happy and that's been almost anywhere I've worked. Through being at different shops I've met lots of techs,from lots of other shops,haven't met any that I knew were dishonest. There are plenty of customers that are less than honest,don't understand we don't have crystal balls and just because we changed your intank pump yesterday we don't know and have nothing to do with your alternator,ignition switch,or crank position sensor failing next week I'm tired of everyone labeling us as crooks. We gave to be educated every year,and buy new tools for new systems. 99 percent of us aren't crooks,and aren't ripping people off abd getting rich doing this.

same experience, and yes my crystal ball was cracked a long time ago.

One of my employers gave way too much away. We got into it several times over free repairs. One that comes to mind was a complete front end rebuild on a 4x4 Dodge truck u-joints and all. He gave the entire job away because the customer went ballistic. Had a bad steering box and it wasn't in the estimate.

In the end his check always cleared so I lost the arguments.

 

[YakkoWarner]

One thing to remember is GM heavy starters need that rear torque strap employed or the starter can get all wonky and tears teeth up on the flex plate.

Now thats important to know - since mine did not have that. What does the strap attach to?

 

[Ricko1966]

Now thats important to know - since mine did not have that. What does the strap attach to?

Bolts to the back of the starter and then to the block. I think it's a very important piece,others don't think so. Have someone crank the starter sometime while you lay on your back and watch the starter twist.You know a triangle is a very strong shape,that bracket creates a triangle 2 attachment points at the front of the starter 1 at the rear. There are 2 versions. 1 for 168 tooth flywheel 1 for 153 tooth flyweel,probably have to order one online.

 

[edgephoto]

I have been in the car business for 40 years. I have been technician, shop foreman, dispatcher, manager and owned my owned shop. I know hundreds of auto technicians. Are there some less than honest ones, of course.

What people don't realize is the customers are more dishonest than anyone. They lie and blame shops all the time. There are way more dishonest customers than technicians or shops. In my current role I see people trying to make fake receipts to scam the manufacturer out of an engine that they neglected to maintain.

"Ever since you changed my oil I have this check engine light on. I expect you to fix it for free". When you show them the measuring block that shows how long the MIL has been illuminated they get nice. You caught them in a lie.

 

[Ricko1966]

Now thats important to know - since mine did not have that. What does the strap attach to?

I got you a couple of pics.Ive had the argument too many times on here. I'm not going to get into the debate again. Putting the brace on supports the starter way better because now it's triangulation not just 2 starter bolts in the same plain.As I said before watch a starter with no brace flex when the starter is engaged.I am positive,that any of the broken starter nose cones or cracked blocks at the starter location that I've seen were missing the brace. If you aren't running a brace,Google Chevrolet small block starter brace important or not. Do some reading make your own decision.

 

[fast 99]

........and use serrated starter bolts.